[R-G] Mormon Church, its anti-War position -- and some other things

[Macdonald Stainsby]

> Is this a Marxist list, a goddamn missing persons bureau or a website for
> off-the-wall shamans and nitpicking Jesuits?
>
> Save me from goddamn flexible catholics and especially from Mormon
> fellow-travellers. Either I have to quit this list or I have to disinter the
> sad and terrible history of the Mormons and explicate the current political
> economy of Utah--the nearest thing to the Saudi monarchy west of the
> Apennines. And I have no appetite whatever to do either. Is it not possible
> for people to confine their remarks on _this_ list to matters which fall
> within its purview? Marxism? Ecology?
>
> Yours exasperatedly
>
> Mark Jones

Jesus.
Here I am trying to pack to go and see my 85 year old Great Aunt.

Actually, that relates immediately to how I am going to answer this. I am going
up there to do an interview about her life. Her late husband, my mothers uncle,
escaped from a Nazi capture by slipping off hand-cuffs and slipping away, he had
a disjointable wrist.

Why do I think that this is worth pointing out in the context of Hunter Grays
continued postings about Utah and the Mormons? A good story can often do far
more for winning people over to radical ideas, and even when they don't come
with a full program, or have facets very opposed to what we radicals believe in.
I knew from a very young age that fascism must be fought thanks to episodes like
this, and that came from stories.

One woman I was once involved with grew up in Salt Lake City. She couldn't stand
the Mormons. She felt constricted by them, made to feel guilty, as if she were
in a moral prison. Mormonism is a bizarre cult, imo. She ran away, lived on the
street, got involved in the sex trade. All because of the god-damned Mormonistic
nature of both her family and her city. Mormonism is anti-people. BUT so is the
Anglican Church. I have little or no respect for the history of that church
either, all told. Yet in Vancouver we can almost always count on the support of
the Anglican Church for peace rallies, for space to host people to speak (such
as recently, Scott Ritter and then Michael Parenti was at a Presbyterian) and to
do organizing, tireless organizing as a part of the "anti-globalisation"
movement. The reason that such a void is filled by these people is simple: there
is a stark lack of leadership among the movement, and that void has been
temporarily filled by Starhawk and the Pagans, the Anglican and United Churches
and even (to a very small but worrisome extent) Neo-Nazis (note to the
anarchists among the list: leadership exists, and ignoring it is what has made
these reformists and religionists have it).

>From what I gather, as George Bush is about to destroy any hope of turning the
ship around before we crash into the rocks, it appears that a similar role to
the Anglican Church is being played out where Hunter lives by the Mormons. They
are telling us, at least, that we are on a boat! This ain't dry land right now.

If you want to dredge up the history of the Mormon church-- and if anyone wants
to reply to your analysis, that's fine by me. But what we will not have is a
situation where I watch two of my favourite cyber comrades treat each other with
the hostility that other man did to Hunter on that other list. Hunter is not our
enemy, he is a comrade. Treat him as such and within that, nothing is out of
bounds.

To all of us:
Look around you. See what's going on, understand that the world doesn't come in
a perfect package and then look for the people who will help us stop this
juggernaut, warts and all. I don't mean the Mormons as allies per se, but an old
Wobbly who supports them I sure as Hell do mean. I don't think Hunter Gray is
going to cross over to the other side, under any circumstances. He may have
disagreeable politics occasionally (He and I just had a angry squabble over my
referring to the ICFTU as an imperialist scab outfit), but what matters to me--
about both of you-- is that you'll die with socialism on your lips.

So, Mark, one of my favourite writers and scholars, you have a choice. Either
filter out Hunters posts, answer them politely or ignore them all together. I
will expel no one based on their personal experiences with a church I have never
interacted with.

Yes, this is a marxist list, small "m". I am a Leninist, but not all of our
posters here are.
This is a list for all who want to stop the ecological Armageddon and have
already reached anti-capitalist conclusions about how to do that.

Fire away, if you must. But do it with all the tact that must befall all of
those of us from the Rhondda Valley, got it?

in continued comradeship,
Macdonald,
moderator.