[Marxism] A second quote from Marx and Engels on crises

[Waistline2 at aol.com]

In a message dated 2/23/2009 5:00:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
_cdb1003 at prodigy.net_ (mailto:cdb1003 at prodigy.net)  writes: 
 

CB: As I consider your last post and  this one, I think you will  find that 
you and your sidekick Sartesian are not ultimately on the same side in  this 
debate. 
 
***** 
 
Reply 
 
Comrade . . . brother, the issue is not     "WHO IS  WRONG" but "what's 
wrong." 
 
Let's try and get to the "what" because to approach matters different is  
fraught with certain dangers, that have the potential to cause divisions over  
things not essential to the life of the proletariat. Sides in debate generally  
should deal with the underlying theoretical proposition. If I jest or ribbed 
you  the wrong way I apologize. 
 
What is wrong IMO with "RAISING" the proposition of "restricted  consumption" 
of the masses, as fundamental to Marx theory approach to the value  relations 
- bourgeois economic system,  is 
 
(1). that the production of value - the metabolizing of labor, and 
 
(2). the systematic reduction of the value content of commodities, 
 
has absolutely nothing to do with the consumption levels of anyone in  
society. Or rather, only wage rates fit into the equation and wages here are  posed 
strictly as the socially necessary amount of reproduction of the working  
class. 
 
One has to theoretical construct the value system, because in a pure feudal  
society, which cannot exist accept as a theoretical construction, there is  
little to no value production. Yet the consumption of the masses is not only  
restricted but very narrow. This means we can pose things in the system of value 
 production in their purity. What is produced and reproduced in our 
theoretical  society is value. 
 
The mode of distribution is not the ultimate source of crisis. One can only  
consume that which is produced and then distributed. Distribution is based on  
wages paid. The problem is not the mode of distribution, but rather, the  
property relations that defines the mode of distribution. 
 
That is my starting point. 
 
Engels should not have placed that quote from Marx notebook in VOl. 3 of  
Capital . . . which Marx neither wrote or proof read. But he did to reveal all  
of Marx thinking. Therefore we have to deal with it. 
 
Marx is wrong if he is to be understood as meaning the ultimate cause of  
crisis of the system of value production is the restricted consumption  of  the 
masses. 
 
Treating Marx as some kind of God  . . . . I am not feeling that at  all. 
Marx is wrong . . . according to Marx. 
 
Today we can pretty easily prove this, given the development of the  
productive forces for the past 110 years. 
 
****** 
 
(contained in the commodities) as the shape and curve of capitalist  history. 
This is only one aspect of the crisis immanent to bourgeois production,  
because the mass of laborer on earth are not employed, yet needed commodities  sit 
in warehouses for lack of purchasers. 
 
^^^^ CB: _a_ mass of laborers are part of the relative surplus population,  
and the reserved army of unemployed. Their immiseration is the Absolute General 
 Law of Capitalist Accumulation. 
 
^^^ Reply 
 
Comrade, a mass of workers - proletarians on planet earth are starving to  
death. Here is the real restricted consumption, in my opinion. During period of  
"fuller" employment we are to content to speak on behalf of the proletarian  
masses. The result is that we become dull, lazy, sluggish in our theoretical  
outlook and quietly thank the Lord we are not them. All of us are just 
becoming  aroused and out of our sluggishness, because a section of our proletariat 
is  coming out of its sluggishness and groveling at the table of the 
bourgeoisie. . 
 
************* 
 
The simple everyday reason for modern overproduction is material over  
capacity of the productive forces in relationship to the consuming capacity of  the 
paid workers. 
 
^^^ CB: So , we agree. Where's Steve Palmer and Sartesian 
 
^^^^^ 
 
Reply 
 
Good. We all agree. Overcapacity ain't overproduction. And the consuming  
ability of the paid workers is roughly only 50% of the world proletariat, will  
never be able to consume the mass of commodities created by our gigantic  
productive forces. 
 
It is not even necessary to increase the consuming capacity of the paid  
workers to get rid of those commodities - (socially necessary), in the  warehouse. 
Now this gets tricky because my youngest daughter just explained to  me why 
her cell phone and IPOD is a socially necessary product. ;-) 
 

^^^^ CB: This is a nice point. However, _underconsumption_ is an  "ultimate" 
cause. But I agree, and have said in these debates that anarchy of  production 
is a part of the causal process too. 
 
So, yes underconsumption inherent in exploitation and anarchy of  production. 
Unplanned production. 
 
But think about it further, why is the production anarchic in the sense  that 
all the capitalists producing at levels individually without any sense of  
how much is produced in the economy as a whole is not matched to _demand_ of  
society as a whole ? 
 
Gotta go now. Tune in next time for the answer. 
 
Reply 
 
Here I believe is the theoretical divide - what is wrong, in my opinion. 
 
"anarchy of production is a part of the causal process too." 
 
1). Anarchy of production is not the result of individual capitals  producing 
without a plan. This positions everything backwards. 
 
Rather the lack of a plan is the hallmark and meaning of capital-ism.  
Capital-ism means that the capital is in the hands of the individual. As a  social 
act "capital in the hand of the individual" manifests anarchy of  production . 
. . the property relations. The property relations rather than the  mode of 
distribution is the problem. The ultimate source of crisis is the  property 
relations. 
 
What exacerbates the continuous crisis of capital is "something" that  cannot 
be found in the consumption level of the masses. Rather one must look at  the 
machinery of society and on what basis it becomes operational. 
 
To take a position that the ultimate cause of crisis of the capitalist  syste
m means the same as saying the ultimate cause is the mode of distribution.  
Ask somebody. 
 
WHAT, rather than "who" is strictly a theoretical issue. 
 
WL.
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