No subject

> CB: So, the ultimate, ultimate cause of the crisis is the exploitation of 
> workers, which impoverishes and restricts the consumption of the masses

Except that's not what Fitch says-- that the high rates of exploitation 
impoverished and restricted the consumption of the masses.

^^^^
CB: So, shall we comment on
Fitch's article by just repeating
what he says, or should we
analyze and interpret it ? think about
it or just regurgitate what he says ?

^^^^^


 And that's not 
what Marx says, 

^^^
CB: He does say it one time.

^^^^

and that's not what the concrete history of capitalism, 
capitalist growth, capitalist contraction shows. 

^^^^^
CB: There are crises, and 
there is exploitation in the
concrete history of capitalism.

^^^^

First high rates of 
exploitation are not identical with deepening impoverishment and restriction 
of consumption.
^^^^^
CB: Relative to what is produced
there is. If in time frame A
X number of commodities are
produced at rate of ex &

And in time frame B, X number
of commodities are produced
at rate of exploitation & + a

Then the impoverishment in Time
frame B is greater relative to 
X than A is relative to X.
The producers  in time frame
A can buy more of X than those
in time frame B.

How does overproduction 
fit into this picture ?
Is the over in production
related to any "under" in buying ?

^^^^^^^


 As a matter of fact, the high rates of exploitation in 
China are coincident with increasing consumption, and if we are to accept 
the general indicators of human development, significant reductions in 
poverty of large sectors of the population.

^^^^
CB: However they are producing more
now than before, and relative to
what they are producing now
they may be as impoverished
as much as they were relative
to what they could produce before.
So, a lot more of what they produce now
gets sold outside of China compared to 
before.

They are producing more than before.
Relative to what does that become
_over_ producing ?

^^^^^

Secondly, while Charles sits on his one trick pony on his consumptionist 
calliope, we ought to understand what capitalism is about-- and that is 
profit, aggrandizement of wage-labor, expropriation of surplus-value. The 
singular characteristic of capitalism is not that consumption either renews 
or interrupts its cycle, but that consumption does not occur outside, 
separate and apart, the cycle of reproduction-- that consumption is itself 
derived from, determined by, capital's success in its reproduction, in its 
rate of accumulation of profit.

^^^^
CB: S.Artesian sits on his one fart donkey, 
rate of profit ( or is it the OCC ?) doing
those Motown dances he's so 
good at.
Rate of acc. of profit ! honk ! Rate of acc. of profit honk !

And what are workers gonna 
do about that
rate of acc. of profit but watch it like the 
stars in the sky. 

Hey, sisters and brothers
lets fight for a bigger piece
of the pie. That'll put an
end to this business cycle.

And what about this two step ?
Overproduction , underprofitization
Overproduction, underprofitization

And did the OCC rise before
that last crisis started ?
Then how is it the tendency
of the rate of profit to fall is
involved if not the OCC ?

^^^^^

But that, I suppose, has meaning for those who actually read Marx, rather 
than search for a single quote on which to hang the whole of capital.

^^^^^^
CB: A single quote here, the whole first 
chapter there.
Labor is the source of all value is where 
we hang the whole of capital here,
Exploitation is the basis of all surplus and profit there.

And what of overproduction ? How
is the production "over"
if not relative to "under" buying ?
How many times do Marx and Engels
refer to these as crises of 
overproduction ? here there everywhere

How is it that overproduction 
causes the fall in the rate of
accumulatin of profit ?


^^^^^

We've had this discussion how many times? Each time I ask Charles to trace 
if he would a cycle of capital, say from the recovery of 2003 to the 
beginning of the downturn in 2007, and plug his one trick pony into it to 
show us how consumption drove both recovery and downturn. Each time no 
response is provided. And that not saying anything says it all.

^^^^
CB: And everytime Fartisian forgets that
I reply  every time
it's not the "trigger" the
immediate cause, it's the
ultimate cause. Like
the Absolute General law
it's secular , not cyclical.
It's like gasoline leaking
constantly only ignited
periodically by a spark.