From sartesian@earthlink.net Fri Oct 31 23:24:08 2008 Received: from elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.68]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Kw8xz-0007lv-OW for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 23:24:07 -0600 Received: from [69.86.1.8] (helo=dmsthinkpad) by elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Kw8xt-0006U0-PF for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 01:24:01 -0400 Message-ID: From: "S. Artesian" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" References: <28870333.1225506651237.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 01:24:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-ELNK-Trace: cb12c76ec1f5bb3a85338a7d01cb3b6a7e972de0d01da94025f87f099d384d6d95ae886771542beb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.86.1.8 Subject: Re: [Marxism] Last minute stab by rightist Dobson against Obama X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 05:24:09 -0000 If you would be so kind as to answer the questions I posed, (having to do with "better")rather than spin out your usual cracker barrel, porch swing, pseudo dialectic, I might answer your question. Then again, might not. Voting is such a personal thing, you know. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walter Lippmann" To: Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 10:30 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] Last minute stab by rightist Dobson against Obama From walterlx@earthlink.net Fri Oct 31 23:27:02 2008 Received: from elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.64]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Kw90o-0007mG-AP for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 23:27:02 -0600 Received: from [209.86.224.40] (helo=elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Kw90j-00034A-0Q for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 01:26:57 -0400 Received: from 216.175.74.67 by webmail.earthlink.net with HTTP; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 01:26:56 -0400 Message-ID: <5939708.1225517216997.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 01:26:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Walter Lippmann To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 584b452a2df9bf4e1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec791a9e07b9e5fe4a0735b83d46bc314fad350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.40 Subject: Re: [Marxism] Last minute stab by rightist Dobson against Obama X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 05:27:02 -0000 SARTESIAN ASKED: If you would be so kind as to answer the questions I posed, (having to do= =20 with "better")rather than spin out your usual cracker barrel, porch swing, pseudo dialectic, I might answer your question. Then again, might not.=20 Voting is such a personal thing, you know. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D WALTER INQUIRED: What questions did you pose? I'm sorry, I've deleted previous posts. Walter Lippmann Los Angeles, California =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D WALTER LIPPMANN Los Angeles, California Editor-in-Chief, CubaNews http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaNews/ "Cuba - Un Para=C3=ADso bajo el bloqueo" =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From ok.president@gmail.com Fri Oct 31 23:34:26 2008 Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com ([209.85.200.169]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Kw97y-0007nW-NP for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 23:34:26 -0600 Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 27so1700386wfd.17 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 22:34:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.174.18 with SMTP id w18mr5855911wfe.202.1225517666125; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 22:34:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.229.19 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 22:34:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <908b689f0810312234u1b0348ekd10f5d28732f60c2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 01:34:26 -0400 From: "Ruthless Critic of All that Exists" Sender: ok.president@gmail.com To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Google-Sender-Auth: 67cea9d60e227140 Subject: [Marxism] Cindy Sheehan's Campaign Headquarters Heavily Damaged in Late Night Attack X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 05:34:27 -0000 Cindy Sheehan's Campaign Headquarters Heavily Damaged in Late Night Attack Oct 30 06:03 PM US/Eastern SAN FRANCISCO, Oct. 30 /PRNewswire/ -- Just 5 days before the election, at 3a.m. on October 30th, all of the front windows of the Cindy Sheehan for Congress campaign offices were shattered. Although staffers had been in the office less than an hour earlier, no one was in the building at the time of the incident. No one was hurt and there were no witnesses. Cindy Sheehan is a candidate for Congress in California's 8th Congressional District race against incumbent Nancy Pelosi (D-CA). "It seems to have been a calculated intimidation tactic," said Tiffany Burns, the Cindy for Congress campaign manager. "One of our computers was stolen, but no other property was taken from our offices and no surrounding buildings were targeted. Clearly they wanted to both frighten us and to gather information." Total damage to the campaign office is currently estimated at more than $5,000. The Cindy for Congress campaign recently chronicled a series of unusual events, including other threats of violence, in a statement issued on October 13th. In that statement, Cindy Sheehan noted "[t]he past few weeks have been a little strange at Cindy for Congress [...] the things that have been happening could just be coincidences, or a run of bad luck, but the climate for the possibility of campaign hanky-panky certainly exists." Campaign staffers also note each incident, including today's early morning incident, has followed closely on the heels of a confrontation with Cindy Sheehan's opponent Nancy Pelosi. This morning's incident occurred after an on-air confrontation between the two candidates on KQED's public affairs program Forum with Michael Krasny on Wednesday morning. "Each time we confront her, each time we ask her for a debate, each time we gain ground in the polls, something horrible happens," said Burns. "Once or twice might be a coincidence, but such a consistent correlation is hard to ignore." From adambrichmond@yahoo.com Fri Oct 31 23:37:56 2008 Received: from web54607.mail.re2.yahoo.com ([206.190.49.177]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Kw9BL-0007ns-TX for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 23:37:56 -0600 Received: (qmail 89631 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Nov 2008 05:37:49 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: Ek0T_sQVM1loxOL_tlRjDOzCgA4wVlN18FD4OlWwI1LQa5HRfZkqd66D8G805ta_ogBDdGB57LcAb7AEThePLmIWaHFQWZiMTalXBfyZBle_LoVNBMXwZWZPp8NE0IImlUiC9i7Ss5r2viE8Ny2kk8lJ0cMgrMZxiCX9liOVHkzrFih2X_aDnUjT93Y- Received: from [71.146.10.140] by web54607.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 22:37:49 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.7.247.3 Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 22:37:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Adam Richmond To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition In-Reply-To: <908b689f0810312234u1b0348ekd10f5d28732f60c2@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <571098.89411.qm@web54607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Marxism] Cindy Sheehan's Campaign Headquarters Heavily Damaged in Late Night Attack X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 05:37:56 -0000 I was at the HQ this afternoon, the glass has been replaced. --- On Fri, 10/31/08, Ruthless Critic of All that Exists wrote: > From: Ruthless Critic of All that Exists > Subject: [Marxism] Cindy Sheehan's Campaign Headquarters Heavily Damaged in Late Night Attack > To: "Adam Richmond" > Date: Friday, October 31, 2008, 10:34 PM > Cindy Sheehan's Campaign Headquarters Heavily Damaged in > Late Night Attack > > Oct 30 06:03 PM US/Eastern > > > > > SAN FRANCISCO, Oct. 30 /PRNewswire/ -- Just 5 days before > the > election, at 3a.m. on October 30th, all of the front > windows of the > Cindy Sheehan for Congress campaign offices were shattered. > Although > staffers had been in the office less than an hour earlier, > no one was > in the building at the time of the incident. No one was > hurt and there > were no witnesses. Cindy Sheehan is a candidate for > Congress in > California's 8th Congressional District race against > incumbent Nancy > Pelosi (D-CA). > > "It seems to have been a calculated intimidation > tactic," said Tiffany > Burns, the Cindy for Congress campaign manager. "One > of our computers > was stolen, but no other property was taken from our > offices and no > surrounding buildings were targeted. Clearly they wanted to > both > frighten us and to gather information." Total damage > to the campaign > office is currently estimated at more than $5,000. > > The Cindy for Congress campaign recently chronicled a > series of > unusual events, including other threats of violence, in a > statement > issued on October 13th. In that statement, Cindy Sheehan > noted "[t]he > past few weeks have been a little strange at Cindy for > Congress [...] > the things that have been happening could just be > coincidences, or a > run of bad luck, but the climate for the possibility of > campaign > hanky-panky certainly exists." > > Campaign staffers also note each incident, including > today's early > morning incident, has followed closely on the heels of a > confrontation > with Cindy Sheehan's opponent Nancy Pelosi. This > morning's incident > occurred after an on-air confrontation between the two > candidates on > KQED's public affairs program Forum with Michael Krasny > on Wednesday > morning. > > "Each time we confront her, each time we ask her for a > debate, each > time we gain ground in the polls, something horrible > happens," said > Burns. "Once or twice might be a coincidence, but such > a consistent > correlation is hard to ignore." > > ________________________________________________ > YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a > message. > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/adambrichmond%40yahoo.com From lajany_otum@yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 31 23:38:51 2008 Received: from web27406.mail.ukl.yahoo.com ([217.146.177.182]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Kw9CE-0007o8-Rq for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 23:38:51 -0600 Received: (qmail 93882 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Nov 2008 05:38:43 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: Zty_IDsVM1nOwijBd_nt4XWI63Deqn.Sfi8Yk_nuL37Q4bG8KyiGCWJeH_gqjoGaFcc6zUgMh3pcZur0ZBbhEMyzd5tlIJRFHGwW8coflcZIttrpc9C7Zas2b6lVuM72BYDJervKYMiSCTbxfEjOyuF4f1uPla1GQ_aJ82cN0922PD2uZltu.uoZ0daYBtAOHPNL4.ZZwy5f_gc- Received: from [72.222.128.65] by web27406.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 05:38:43 GMT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/1155.20 YahooMailWebService/0.7.247.3 Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 05:38:43 +0000 (GMT) From: Lajany Otum To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <820866.93774.qm@web27406.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Subject: Re: [Marxism] Last minute stab by rightist Dobson against Obama X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 05:38:51 -0000 =0A=0AWalter Lippmann writes:=0A=0A=0A=0A> =0A> Feel free to make any error= you want and to correct yourself publicly.=0A> The issue came about in Bli= ght and Short's assessment of the missile=0A> crisis of October 1962. They = believed that McCain would have been less=0A> likely to initiate nuclear wa= r than Obama would have been under those=0A> circumstances. But you can dis= cuss anything you want about anything=0A> you want anyway. One of the nice = things about a discussion forum like=0A> this is that you don't have to res= pond to anything you don't want to,=0A> and you can make things up if you f= eel like. It's all good.=0A>=0A>=0AWalter,=0AI'm not sure whether you are t= hicker than you are mendacious or vice versa. =0AYou brought up nuclear wea= pons, saying they were an issue in the campaign =0Awith the implication tha= t a democratic president was less likely to launch =0Anuclear weapons than = a republican. Your original post, for the record is here: =0Ahttp://archive= s.econ.utah.edu/archives/marxism/2008w43/msg00307.htm=0AWhen I point out th= e inconvenient fact that the only POTUS to use nuclear =0Aweapons, was a de= mocrat, and that he did so not once but twice, you =0Aaccuse me of "making = things up". =0ADoes your sliminess not know any bounds? Honestly, just when= you had =0Ashown signs of reforming your behaviour on this list, and peopl= e might have =0Abegun to think that perhaps you weren't such a shit after a= ll. =0ALajany Otum=0A=0A=0A From walterlx@earthlink.net Fri Oct 31 23:45:10 2008 Received: from elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.63]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Kw9IM-0007oc-FQ for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 23:45:10 -0600 Received: from [209.86.224.49] (helo=elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Kw9IL-0004Jd-NE for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 00:45:09 -0500 Received: from 216.175.74.67 by webmail.earthlink.net with HTTP; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 01:45:09 -0400 Message-ID: <15528034.1225518309512.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 01:45:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Walter Lippmann To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 584b452a2df9bf4e1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79cc2d9b183ccf21c769027d54dc2f1513350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.49 Subject: Re: [Marxism] Last minute stab by rightist Dobson against Obama X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 05:45:10 -0000 LAJANY OTUM wrote: You brought up nuclear weapons, saying they were an issue in the campaign= =20 with the implication that a democratic president was less likely to launch= =20 nuclear weapons than a republican. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D WALTER LIPPMANN responds: I agree with Blight and Short that Obama would have been less likely to initiate nuclear war than McCain would have been under the circumstances of the October crisis of 1962. In point of historical fact, Kennedy did not use nuclear weapons, only the threat of using them, nor did he start a land invasion of Cuba, as some in the Pentagon (Curtis LeMay) advocated. These are practical matters as McCain continues to bring them up now. Walter Lippmann Los Angeles, California =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D WALTER LIPPMANN Los Angeles, California Editor-in-Chief, CubaNews http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaNews/ "Cuba - Un Para=C3=ADso bajo el bloqueo" =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From sartesian@earthlink.net Fri Oct 31 23:57:49 2008 Received: from elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.64]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Kw9Ub-0007pI-Il for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 23:57:49 -0600 Received: from [69.86.1.8] (helo=dmsthinkpad) by elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Kw9UV-0006Ya-PF for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 01:57:43 -0400 Message-ID: <641718A6991741F6BABE4CE6FEC1FF6A@dmsthinkpad> From: "S. Artesian" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" References: <7b8a676d0810311957y4fa43ce1gf1cc6a3a97f3b6e1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 01:57:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-ELNK-Trace: cb12c76ec1f5bb3a85338a7d01cb3b6a7e972de0d01da940d41fb2bf77909031ad904102e38f8dec350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.86.1.8 Subject: Re: [Marxism] If you want to identify the ruling class, you have to decide what is a social class. X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 05:57:50 -0000 And Anthony wrote that 90 million people make up the US ruling class by virtue of their what? pension plans? health care? operating an Ace Hardware franchise? Ninety million? Hell, Ayn Rand was right. The free market does really work and hold the greatest opportunity for the greatest numbers. Show me another system where 30% of the population actually rules the economy, actually determines what is done and why it is done. When I referred to those actually making the decisions controlling the government and the economy I intended that as the description of a ruling class's activity. The class itself is defined by its ownership of the means of production. And ownership of small, individual assets, is not ownership of capital, does not place somebody into ruling class. Owning a house is not owning capital. A house is not capital, unless it is used to extract surplus value, or to gain a portion of the surplus value generated throughout the society. Employing a gardener, a cook, a child-care worker in that house does not make one a capitalist, nor does it place somebody into the ruling class. If others work "at the beck and call" of others, than those issuing the beck and the call are the rulers, and the others their agents. Who owned the plantations in the South? The overseers or the owners? Who ruled the South? The overseers or the plantation owners? The overseers did not determine the course of secession. The plantation owners did. When, after the MLK assasination, the DuPonts had Wilmington, Delaware occupied by the Natl Guard and the police, who was the ruling class? The salesmen, gas station owners etc in the Natl Guard or the DuPonts? A ruling class rules-- makes actual decisions. Somebody who has property worth several million dollars by virtue of real estate inflation does not automatically qualify as a member of the ruling class. As for the Horatio Alger stories, which were and are baloney, moving into or out of the petty bourgeoisie is not the same thing as moving into or out of the ruling class. The ruling class doesn't move out. Period. It might get thrown out, but it doesn't move out. Speaking of agents and the distinction between agents and owners-- Clinton prior to the beginning of his first term had, you will recall, a series of sit-down seminars on economics with noted leading lights from business, finance, and academia. Afterwards, so it was reported, he was talking with Robert Rubin about what he wanted to implement for economic policy. Rubin shook his head at several ideas and told Clinton that the major investment banks, the designated "primary dealers" for US Treasury debt instruments, would never go along, and would not buy the notes and bonds necessary for government operations, causing interest rates to rise, and the government to pay more for less. Clinton, as it was reported, stopped and stared at Rubin, and said, "You mean to tell me that the economic policy of the President depends on the approval of a handful of bond traders on Wall Street?" Rubin told him that indeed it did. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Boynton" To: Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 10:57 PM Subject: [Marxism] If you want to identify the ruling class,you have to decide what is a social class. From sartesian@earthlink.net Sat Nov 01 00:08:05 2008 Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.70]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Kw9eX-0007px-I4 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 00:08:05 -0600 Received: from [69.86.1.8] (helo=dmsthinkpad) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Kw9eR-00045v-J8 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 02:07:59 -0400 Message-ID: From: "S. Artesian" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" References: <15528034.1225518309512.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 02:08:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-ELNK-Trace: cb12c76ec1f5bb3a85338a7d01cb3b6a7e972de0d01da940164128aeeb19156573d2c90fc7dcfbcc350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.86.1.8 Subject: Re: [Marxism] Last minute stab by rightist Dobson against Obama X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 06:08:05 -0000 Walter, that-- if in 1962 Obama had been president he would have been less likely to use nuclear weapons than McCain-- is about as absurd a area for discussion as anything, as all the absurdities, you have ever brought up rolled up into one. Brings to mind an incident way in the 60s after Ali won his title. Some geniusues used computers to simulate a fight between Ali and Rocky Marciano. The computer had Marciano winning the fight. To which Ali replied, "The only way Marciano beats me is if the computer is from Alabama." Which is to say, garbage in, garbage out. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walter Lippmann" To: Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 1:45 AM From walterlx@earthlink.net Sat Nov 01 00:11:52 2008 Received: from elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.65]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Kw9iB-0007qK-VZ for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 00:11:52 -0600 Received: from [209.86.224.49] (helo=elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Kw9i6-00047R-2m for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 02:11:46 -0400 Received: from 216.175.74.67 by webmail.earthlink.net with HTTP; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 02:11:46 -0400 Message-ID: <9559430.1225519906158.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 02:11:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Walter Lippmann To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 584b452a2df9bf4e1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79f5355a612d6fe379d0ea93b6d73c6a90350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.49 Subject: Re: [Marxism] Last minute stab by rightist Dobson against Obama X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 06:11:52 -0000 SARTESIAN writes: Walter, that-- if in 1962 Obama had been president he would have been less= =20 likely to use nuclear weapons than McCain-- is about as absurd a area for= =20 discussion as anything, as all the absurdities, you have ever brought up=20 rolled up into one. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D WALTER responds: You are fully entitled to your opinion, whatever it might be about what might have happened in October 1962, I agree with Blight and Short and you express no opinion on that question. Fine with me that you express no opinion. None was attributed to you. Walter Lippmann Los Angeles, California =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D WALTER LIPPMANN Los Angeles, California Editor-in-Chief, CubaNews http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaNews/ "Cuba - Un Para=C3=ADso bajo el bloqueo" =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From markalause@gmail.com Sat Nov 01 00:51:39 2008 Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.186]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwAKh-0007sY-HM for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 00:51:39 -0600 Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id e27so865918nfd.9 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 23:51:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.210.87.19 with SMTP id k19mr5539716ebb.109.1225522297244; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 23:51:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.210.86.18 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Oct 2008 23:51:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 02:51:37 -0400 From: "Mark Lause" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" In-Reply-To: <15528034.1225518309512.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <15528034.1225518309512.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [Marxism] Last minute stab by rightist Dobson against Obama X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 06:51:40 -0000 I do understand the impulse to support Obama. I'd give anything to be able to rationalize going with him. And, living in a swing state, I could support Obama here and challenge the radical credentials of my friends for their failure to vote for the Vegetarian Bolsheviki ticket in New York. When David Cobb urged this, we recognized it as rank opportunism of the worst sort. How is it not so when we do it? And why is it so hard to formulate a common line on the United States--that applies here or New York or New Orleans or Wasilla--when we seem to know so bloody well what line radicals in other countries should or shouldn't do? A friend of mine back in Chicago used to joke that he was always looking to sell out the revolution...just as soon as he got a serious offer. He'd always go cheap, he said, but nobody was buying. As always tends to be the case, there's a germ of truth to it. I wish I could find one single legitimate reason to justify finding Obama acceptable and I can't. For me, too, I'd probably be a pretty cheap purchase. But they're not buying. They can't even spare a nod or wink to the left...much less buy us a drink. And so it goes... ML From craigbrozefsky@gmail.com Sat Nov 01 01:00:39 2008 Received: from mail-gx0-f19.google.com ([209.85.217.19]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwATP-0007sv-EB for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 01:00:39 -0600 Received: by gxk12 with SMTP id 12so87905gxk.23 for ; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 00:00:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.64.180.15 with SMTP id c15mr14449335qbf.82.1225522831360; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 00:00:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leotard.kokonino.net (h-69-3-101-242.chcgilgm.dynamic.covad.net [69.3.101.242]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p6sm9447771qbp.17.2008.11.01.00.00.28 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 01 Nov 2008 00:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <490BFE8A.3030906@red-bean.com> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 02:00:26 -0500 From: Craig Brozefsky User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Macintosh/20080914) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition References: <31499259.1225488791099.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: Craig Brozefsky Subject: Re: [Marxism] Last minute stab by rightist Dobson against Obama X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 07:00:39 -0000 Joaquin Bustelo wrote: > "So think about this," she said. "This year is the year of the ballot. Next > year, if we WIN the ballot, will be the year for something more, but if we > lose, we'll be stuck fighting to keep what we have." We will be stuck fighting next year to keep what we have, regardless. Only we'll have spent the last two years building a flimsy coalition around collective denial and "hope" and will get a moment to congratulate ourselves before it all falls apart. > What would comrades do next Tuesday in my shoes? And it has to be > *consistent*: whatever I tell my neighbor or a Latino community meeting or > Cynthia McKinney if she comes back has to be the truth, what I actually did > November 4. I really don't know how to function any other way politically. Then write-in for McKinney, or Nader, or whoever. Not but someone who is going to bomb our brothers and sisters. The death and destruction and harm that will bring is very real, not some abstract foreign policy position. Pissing off some people over a vote that will be forgotten in a few years is nothing, particularly when the struggle will quickly wash over any kind of "who voted for who" finger-pointing in a quasi-democratic farce. From russell.morse@yahoo.com Sat Nov 01 05:59:39 2008 Received: from n62.bullet.mail.sp1.yahoo.com ([98.136.44.35]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwF8l-0008OV-K2 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 05:59:39 -0600 Received: from [216.252.122.219] by n62.bullet.mail.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2008 11:59:34 -0000 Received: from [69.147.65.154] by t4.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2008 11:59:34 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp402.mail.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2008 11:59:34 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 207737.75442.bm@omp402.mail.sp1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 30864 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Nov 2008 11:59:34 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: 5AZyhDcVM1mXhMqKRf3J8JXaQ1.ZGcYQewtmTHRIa3YOu8ZuHLFH2Ue72x7dnPUmPQhpS6PW0urCI8kTDSWUfFnrlIXnuWYDh5gcswBisyrYlIerQvWQrqELBMtva5UxkMywLF4lN2uFTTUIbKfqoK36nUBM Received: from [69.204.241.79] by web45308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 04:59:33 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/1155.20 YahooMailWebService/0.7.247.3 Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 04:59:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Russell Morse To: Marxmail MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <984055.29056.qm@web45308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Subject: [Marxism] Khalidi case - "anti-Semitism" slanders losing efficacy X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 11:59:42 -0000 http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/10/31/neocons/index.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/30/AR2008103003244.html http://www.juancole.com/2008/10/mccain-racism-hypocrisy-on-khalidi.html From glparramatta@greenleft.org.au Sat Nov 01 06:46:30 2008 Received: from mx.mail.com.au ([203.17.36.233]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwFs6-0000I2-GT for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 06:46:30 -0600 Received: from mail.cia.com.au ([203.17.36.17] helo=cia.com.au) by mx.mail.com.au with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwG1p-0005Fs-Kp for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 23:56:33 +1100 Received: (qmail 6321 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2008 12:46:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.1.1.2?) (58.105.87.152) by cia.com.au with SMTP; 1 Nov 2008 12:46:23 -0000 Message-ID: <490C4FA3.1080405@greenleft.org.au> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 23:46:27 +1100 From: glparramatta User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Windows/20080914) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenl >> greenl >> AAA: GreenLeft_discussion@yahoogroups.com" , marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu, "AAAA: a-list@lists.econ.utah.edu" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Marxism] The difference between McCain and Obama | Links X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 12:46:31 -0000 http://links.org.au/node/719 From ffeldman@bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 01 06:49:05 2008 Received: from vms173001pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.1]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwFub-0000Ij-1D for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 06:49:05 -0600 Received: from office1pc ([138.89.80.188]) by vms173001.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0K9N0079GNLMC2AE@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 07:48:59 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 08:49:08 -0400 From: "Fred Feldman" To: Message-id: <57E0C390E6B945B6BB6241D700641247@office1pc> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thread-index: Ack8H7fDYVcexlAcTfSW5pz5T5QBOw== Subject: Re: [Marxism] Last-minute stab by rightist Dobson against Obama X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 12:49:05 -0000 On Joaquin's points, I have come to the conclusion that voting for a bourgeois party or a coalition involving bourgeois forces is not a PRINCIPLED question. Even aside from the many circumstances in the semicolonial world where this is just a sectarian dead end. The Bolsheviks never held this principled position, to my knowledge. Anyway, I tend to view my support for McKinney in this election as a tactic derived from a strategy, not as a principled question. And if I was in Joaquin's position I would feel a lot of moral qualms about NOT voting for Obama. Although I like to think in terms of tactics and strategy, I think our present position kind of makes voting more a matter of conscience, and even personal witness. This list exists in part because most of us has no organization, and really cannot carry out electoral political action collectively. And a lot of the discussion here is in terms of personal witness. I understand the factors that impose this on us, although I dislike that approach to voting. Does voting for Obama cross class lines? To me the answer to that is YES. I think that is obvious. Does that mean it is wrong from a working class or social-revolutionary standpoint to do that in all questions. I don't think that is so. It is determined concretely. A great deal of class-collaboration takes place every day, and has to. Was the Soviet Union wrong to fight world war II in a military alliance with US imperialism? No, that was a necessity of survival -- and it was a necessary political act, not just a military one. How the Soviet bureaucracy used that alliance against revolutionary struggles is another question. The fact that Truman drop atomic bombs on Japan is a fact and a crime against humanity. The fact that Kennedy went ahead with the US-controlled Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba, and later blockaded Cuba and threatened world nuclear war was also a crime against humanity. He decided to not use US planes as air cover -- thus refusing to commit US forces at the Bay of Pigs unless the counterrevolutionaries could win a foothold on their own -- and later decided not to invade Cuba and to settle the conflict without world war. These are also facts. I will add something else: a broad swathe of bourgeois public opinion has reached the conclusion that McCain is less cool-headed and rational under pressure than Obama, and that his rationality in a critical situation is more trustworthy. That does not mean that he will not take responsibility for or be responsible for killing lots of people. I see every reason to believe he will. He is an imperialist candidate of an imperialist party to rule the last world empire But I see nothing wrong with Walter noticing the facts about what Kennedy did, both his readiness to risk war to deal blows to Cuba and his decisions to back off. This is one reason why the Miami mafia hate his memory so much, and why a few of them may have done more than just hate him. Lajny has to get used to the fact that the days when radicals could reasonably argue that in some sense a more peaceable party than the Democrats are gone. I remember entertaining this idea myself back in the 50s, when I was relatively pro-Eisenhower and absolutely loathed Stevenson and the Kennedys. There may have been an empirical basis for this idea back then, but the Republicans are all caught up now. I think Joaquin under the circumstances should vote his conscience, coupled with whatever tactical and strategic considerations he uses. Arguments that this is a vote for war and so on are empty moralizing. We don't get to vote on imperialist wars. No sense pretending that we do, and then beating each other over the head about its our fault if more war happens. More war is going to happen regardless of how we vote, including voting for McKinney and Nader. Our problem is that only one class contends for power in the elections -- the ruling section of the capitalist class. Everything else is propagandistic campaigning, not contention for power. We are not in that game yet. I think the election of Obama is not simply a lesser evil, but an actual step FORWARD for the people of this country. One of the points I keep making is that Obama does not just advocate change. Because of his nationality, HIS ELECTION IS CHANGE AND FOR THE BETTER. And it is taking place as part of a broader shift that is more favorable to us. My support for McKinney and Clemente is based on estimating them as a vanguard expression of this process. If some comrades think that crossing class lines in a polling booth is some mortal sin, well, I don't. But just in case, Joaquin can always go to confession on Sunday and be absolved. He's lucky. I would have to wait for Yom Kippur. Fred Feldman From walterlx@earthlink.net Sat Nov 01 07:23:31 2008 Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.62]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwGRu-0000MP-P0 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 07:23:31 -0600 Received: from [209.86.224.40] (helo=elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwGRp-0005gT-4X for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 09:23:25 -0400 Received: from 216.175.74.67 by webmail.earthlink.net with HTTP; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 09:23:24 -0400 Message-ID: <9469164.1225545804884.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 09:23:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Walter Lippmann To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 584b452a2df9bf4e1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79c56d2d04039bd4094c986eb419e11d26350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.40 Subject: Re: [Marxism] Last-minute stab by rightist Dobson against Obama X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:23:31 -0000 The McCain-Palin-Bush forces aren't only using James Dobson as their spearhead in attacking Obama. They widely use a multi-issue, not a single-issue approach. And mostly they don't spend too much time attacking one another as people on the political left do.=20 In California, these forces are mobilizing through their friends in the anti-gay world, among others. Elehwhere their hope is to use all-out support for Israel, fear of undocumented immigrants, or whatever port will do in a storm to stimulate the feelings of panic and fear in the population during stressful economic times to mobilize the vote for there side. This is but ONE sample of the kind of material which is being circulated widely on the internet. It's over 30 years old but being presented as if it was just learned now. It's hard to guage, looking at a computer screen, how much influence such material is having, though not for lack of trying. It's linked on the MIAMI HERALD's website, which is where I learned about it. 1-Bill Ayers worked with Cuba, says FBI report http://www.miamiherald.com/1322/story/750971.html 2-McCain campaign robo calls criticize Obama (an attack on the Los Angeles Times which McCain regarding Palestinian-American scholar Rashid Khalida, now teaching at Colombia University.) http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics/AP/story/729397.html 3-McCain: Obama's economic policies are left-wing http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics/AP/story/749897.html 4-Some in the Cuban rightist world are even spreading a story suggesting that Obama is really Cuban, not of Kenyan heritage: http://saguaenmuerto.blogspot.com/2008/10/posible-presidente-sagero.html 5-The stakes are high regarding US policy toward Cuba:=20 Election could shift policy on Cuba Sat Nov 1, 2008 8:50am EDT http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE4A00TL20081101 No mention is made in any of this about support to and for McCain by the ultra-rightist Cuban exiles militants as Ann Louise Bardach has well-documented on Slate.com: The GOP's Bill Ayers? The McCain campaign has its own questionable=20 connections to bombers and assassins. By A.L. Bardach Slate.com Oct. 15, 2008 http://www.slate.com/id/2202183/pagenum/all/#page_start =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Ayers played a primary role in the Venceremos Brigades Bill Ayers worked with Cuba says FBI report By Judi McLeod Tuesday, October 28, 2008 http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/5860 Unrepentant terrorist former leading Weather Underground Organization (WUO)= member William Ayers was aided by Fidel Castro=E2=80=99s Cuba in the 1970s, accord= ing to a Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) report.=20 The 400-page report, a copy of which was obtained by the New York Times, re= vealed that Cuban intelligence officers in the General Directorate of Intelligence= (known by its initials in Spanish as the DGI, Cuba=E2=80=99s equivalent of the CIA= ) set up the=20 Venceremos Brigades in which WUO members participated. =E2=80=9CThe ultimate objective of the DGI=E2=80=99s participation in the s= etting up of the Venceremos Brigades was =E2=80=9Cthe recruitment of individuals who are politically or= iented and who someday may obtain a position, elective or appointive, somewhere in the U.S= . Government, which would provide the Cuban Government with access to political, economic= and=20 military intelligence.=E2=80=9D (Italics CFP=E2=80=99s). =E2=80=9CThree years before militant members of the students for a Democrat= ic Society split off to form the Weather Underground Organization in 1970, North Vietnamese = and Cuban officials were influencing radical antiwar strategy through foreign meeting= s. Many of those meetings were held in Communist countries, including Hungary, Czec= hoslovakia and North Vietnam,=E2=80=9D said the report. =E2=80=9CAfter the Weathermen went =E2=80=9Cunderground=E2=80=9D in 1970 wh= en many of them were being sought by the FBI on criminal charges, Cuban intelligence officers were in touch w= ith them from both the Cuban Mission to the United Nations in New York and the Cuban= Embassy in Canada.=E2=80=9D In fact according to the report, Ayers played a primary role in the Vencere= mos Brigades, a role revealed courtesy of Larry Grathwohl, a man publicly described as th= e =E2=80=9Cmost effective informer the FBI ever placed among the Weathermen.=E2=80=9D It was Ayers who told =E2=80=9Cfellow underground WUO member Grathwohl that= if communication could not be made through specially arranged Canadian numbers to flee Ameri= can authorities, an individual should get in touch with the Cuban Embassy in Canada in order= to establish contact with other members of the WUO. =E2=80=9CTo do this an individual should use the code name =E2=80=9CDelgado= =E2=80=9D when referring to himself and the person with whom he desired to make contact,=E2=80=9D the report sa= id. The report was prepared in August 1976 after the Department of Justice open= ed a=20 criminal investigation into charges that bureau agents had committed burgla= ries=20 and carried out illegal mail openings and wiretaps in their attempts to app= rehend Weathermen fugitives. Closely held, only 10 copies of the report were sent to the bureau director= , Clarence M. Kelley. The following were some of its key points: # The conduit for contact in the United States was a group of intelligence = agents assigned to the staff of the Cuban mission to the United Nations in New Yor= k. These agents arranged for American youths to be inculcated with revolutionary fer= vor and, occasionally, to be trained in practical weaponry by Cuban military officer= s through the so-called Venceremos Brigades. # Cuban officials helped several Weather Underground adherents who feared a= rrest in the United States to travel to Prague, Czechoslovakia, and then to reent= er the United States surreptitiously. # It also reported that contact with the Cubans in the United States was ma= de at the Cuban Mission to the United Nations on East 67th Street in Manhattan. = Several top officials stationed at the Embassy in 1969 and 1970 were identified in = the report as Cuban espionage agents. # In another incident, the report said, four Weathermen who had been in Cub= a with the Venceremos Brigades were sent back to the United Stares through Czechos= lovakia rather than through Canada with other brigade members to lessen their chanc= es of being arrested by the United States authorities. The four wanted to get ba= ck to the United States safely after the explosion of a house in Greenwich Villag= e killed two members of the Weather group, Dianna Oughton and Ted Gold, and the Cuba= ns =E2=80=9Cobliged=E2=80=9D them by making the European travel arrangements. Ayers and his wife, former WUO member Bernadine Dohrn were back in Cuba thi= s September as part of =E2=80=9CTeam Havana=E2=80=9D, a conference on =E2=80=9CUseful A= rt=E2=80=9D, or art that includes aspects of social activism.=20 Sponsored by Cathedra de Arte Conducta, an arts program hosted by the Insti= tuto=20 Superior de Arte in Havana, the project was conceived by Cuban visual artis= t and University of Chicago faculty member Tania Bruguera. According to Janice Misurell-Mitchell, writing in CUBE Circuits, part of Te= am Havana=E2=80=99s work was to =E2=80=9Cpresent lectures and informal sessions, films and vide= os and performances.=E2=80=9D Published twice a year, the Chicago-based CUBE is partially sponsored by gr= ants=20 from the Gaylord and Dorothy Donnelly Foundation, the NIB Foundation, the A= rgosy Foundation, the Illinois Arts Council, a state agency, and by a CityArts Pr= ogram 1 grant from the City of Chicago Department of Cultural Affairs. Meanwhile, for some the 1970s Cuban strategy to =E2=80=9Csomeday obtain a p= osition, elective or appointive, somewhere in the U.S. government, which would provide the Cu= ban Government with access to political, economic and military intelligence=E2=80=9D rings= with a certain irony. Given Ayers ties to Presidential frontrunner Barack Hussein Obama we can on= ly hope that =E2=80=9Csomeday=E2=80=9D won=E2=80=99t be now. Judi McLeod is an award-winning journalist with 30 years experience in the = print media. A former Toronto Sun columnist, she also worked for the Kingston Whi= g Standard. Her work has appeared on Newsmax.com, Drudge Report, Foxnews.com, and Glenn= Beck. Judi can be emailed at: judi@canadafreepress.com=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D WALTER LIPPMANN Los Angeles, California Editor-in-Chief, CubaNews http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaNews/ "Cuba - Un Para=C3=ADso bajo el bloqueo" =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From lnp3@panix.com Sat Nov 01 08:13:23 2008 Received: from mail1.panix.com ([166.84.1.72]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwHEB-0000SN-44 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 08:13:23 -0600 Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CC192940E for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 10:13:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from louis.panix.com (cpe-66-108-163-221.nyc.res.rr.com [66.108.163.221]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D30ADE93 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 10:13:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 10:13:18 -0400 To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition From: Louis Proyect In-Reply-To: <57E0C390E6B945B6BB6241D700641247@office1pc> References: <57E0C390E6B945B6BB6241D700641247@office1pc> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Message-Id: <20081101141321.6D30ADE93@mailbackend.panix.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Marxism] Last-minute stab by rightist Dobson against Obama X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:13:23 -0000 Fred wrote: >On Joaquin's points, I have come to the conclusion that voting for a >bourgeois party or a coalition involving bourgeois forces is not a >PRINCIPLED question. Even aside from the many circumstances in the >semicolonial world where this is just a sectarian dead end. > >The Bolsheviks never held this principled position, to my knowledge. Lenin's writings on electoral politics, unlike the vanguardist sects=20 of today, were very much engaged with the immediate tasks of the mass=20 movement and not defining "principles". This excerpt from a 1909 article on "The Last Word of Russian=20 Liberalism"is fairly typical: Inadvertently the Cadet conference has signally confirmed the tactics=20 of our Party. We must survive this new historical period when the=20 autocracy is trying to save itself in a new way and is plainly=20 heading for bankruptcy again on this new path. We must survive this=20 period, systematically, persistently, patiently working to build up a=20 broader and stronger organisation of the more politically conscious=20 masses of the socialist proletariat and the democratic peasantry. We=20 must utilise all conditions and opportunities for Party activity at a=20 time when, both the Black-Hundred Duma and the monarchy are obliged=20 to take the path of partyism. We must use this time as a period for=20 training fresh masses of the people, on a new basis, under new=20 conditions, to wage a more vigorous revolutionary struggle for our=20 old demands. The revolution and the counter-revolution have shown=20 that the monarchy is quite incompatible with democracy, rule by the=20 people, freedom of the people=97we must carry out among the masses=20 propaganda for the abolition of the monarchy, for republicanism, as=20 the condition without which the people cannot be victorious, we must=20 make the slogan of "down with the monarchy" as popular a "household=20 word" as the slogan of "down with the autocracy" became as a result=20 of the long years of persistent work by the Social-Democrats in=20 1895=961904. The revolution and the counter-revolution have shown in=20 practice the full power and significance of the landlord class=97we=20 must sow among the masses of the peasantry propaganda for the=20 complete abolition of this class, the complete destruction of=20 landlordism. The revolution and counter-revolution have shown in=20 actual fact the true nature of the liberals and bourgeois=20 intelligentsia=97we must ensure that the masses of the peasantry=20 clearly understand that the leadership of the liberals will ruin=20 their cause, that without independent revolutionary mass struggle=20 whatever the Cadet "reforms", they will inevitably remain in bondage=20 to the landlord. The revolution and counter-revolution have shown us=20 the alliance of autocracy and the bourgeoisie, the alliance of the=20 Russian and international bourgeoisie=97we must educate, rally and=20 organise in three times greater numbers than in 1905 the masses of=20 the proletariat, which alone, led by an independent Social-Democratic=20 Party and marching hand in hand with the proletariat of the advanced=20 countries, is capable of winning freedom for Russia. full: http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1909/dec/24.htm=20 From lnp3@panix.com Sat Nov 01 08:32:33 2008 Received: from mail2.panix.com ([166.84.1.73]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwHWi-0000TR-TK for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 08:32:33 -0600 Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 168CA34801 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 10:32:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from louis.panix.com (cpe-66-108-163-221.nyc.res.rr.com [66.108.163.221]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73F0BDBFD for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 10:32:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 10:32:29 -0400 To: activists and scholars in Marxist tradition From: Louis Proyect Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Message-Id: <20081101143231.73F0BDBFD@mailbackend.panix.com> Subject: [Marxism] Unrealistic hopes X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:32:33 -0000 The Times (London), October 31, 2008 Friday Don't want to rain on your parade, but this won't be easy, says Obama by Tim Reid, Washington Barack Obama's senior advisers have drawn up plans to lower expectations for his presidency if he wins next week's election, amid concerns that many of his euphoric supporters are harbouring unrealistic hopes of what he can achieve. The sudden financial crisis and the prospect of a deep and painful recession have increased the urgency inside the Obama team to bring people down to earth, after a campaign in which his soaring rhetoric and promises of "hope" and "change" are now confronted with the reality of a stricken economy. One senior adviser told The Times that the first few weeks of the transition, immediately after the election, were critical, "so there's not a vast mood swing from exhilaration and euphoria to despair". The aide said that Mr Obama himself was the first to realise that expectations risked being inflated. In an interview with a Colorado radio station, Mr Obama appeared to be engaged already in expectation lowering. Asked about his goals for the first hundred days, he said he would need more time to tackle such big and costly issues as health care reform, global warming and Iraq. "The first hundred days is going to be important, but it's probably going to be the first thousand days that makes the difference," he said. He has also been reminding crowds in recent days how "hard" it will be to achieve his goals, and that it will take time. "I won't stand here and pretend that any of this will be easy - especially now," Mr Obama told a rally in Sarasota, Florida, yesterday, citing "the cost of this economic crisis, and the cost of the war in Iraq". Mr Obama's transition team is headed by John Podesta, a Washington veteran and a former chief-of-staff to Bill Clinton. He has spent months overseeing a virtual Democratic government-in-exile to plan a smooth transition should Mr Obama emerge victorious next week. The plans are so far advanced that an Obama cabinet has been largely decided upon, with the expectation that most of his senior appointments could be announced shortly after election day. Yet Mr Obama and his aides are under no illusions about the size of the challenges the Democrat will inherit if he enters the Oval Office. Tom Daschle, the party's former leader in the US Senate and a strong contender for the post of White House chief-of-staff in an Obama administration, said last month that the winner next week would have only a 50 per cent chance of winning a second term in 2012. Not only will the next president take office with the country sliding into a potentially long recession - and mired in debt - but the challenges abroad are immense. There is an unfinished war in Iraq, a worsening situation in Afghanistan and an unstable and nuclear-armed Pakistan to contend with. Iran appears intent on acquiring the bomb and there remains the ever-present threat from al-Qaeda and Islamic extremists. If he wins, Mr Obama will inherit a Democratic-controlled Congress, and might even have the benefit of a 60-seat filibuster-proof "supermajority" in the Senate. Such a scenario would allow him to push through legislation largely unfettered by Republican opposition. Yet it also means that should the country still be mired in recession in three years' time, voters - who have short memories - will probably blame him and the Democrats on Capitol Hill. Those stakes have led Mr Obama to conclude that while expectations need to be tempered, big things need to be achieved very early in his first term, when he will still have the political capital to achieve some of his most ambitious legislative goals. Having promised "real" change, the pressure will be on him to deliver. In the Colorado interview, Mr Obama added: "The next president has got to come quickly out of the box." The early priorities being lined up if he takes power are a mixture of symbolism and substance. He plans to make a major address in a big Muslim country early in his first term. Having pledged on the campaign trail to close Guantanamo Bay, he is also determined to make early moves to rid America of the controversial prison. Yet what to do with the remaining inmates looms as an intractable problem, as many of their home governments refuse to allow them to return. Mr Obama's first legislative goals will be to follow through on his pledge to cut taxes for the middle class and raise them for the wealthiest Americans, and to push through a hugely expensive Bill to provide near-universal health insurance. From markalause@gmail.com Sat Nov 01 08:54:59 2008 Received: from ey-out-2122.google.com ([74.125.78.25]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwHsQ-0000Vp-Kh for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 08:54:58 -0600 Received: by ey-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 25so603597eya.17 for ; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 07:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.210.10.1 with SMTP id 1mr15089402ebj.16.1225551297193; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 07:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.210.86.18 with HTTP; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 07:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 10:54:57 -0400 From: "Mark Lause" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" In-Reply-To: <20081101141321.6D30ADE93@mailbackend.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <57E0C390E6B945B6BB6241D700641247@office1pc> <20081101141321.6D30ADE93@mailbackend.panix.com> Subject: Re: [Marxism] Last-minute stab by rightist Dobson against Obama X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:54:59 -0000 Walter Lippmann wrote: > The McCain-Palin-Bush forces aren't only using James Dobson as their > spearhead in attacking Obama. They widely use a multi-issue, not a > single-issue approach. And mostly they don't spend too much time > attacking one another as people on the political left do. > Really???? I'd suggest that what you're seeing as some kind of unitary conspiracy to emphasize different things in different circumstances is just a failure to read the evidence from the inside out. These "McCain-Palin-Bush" forces are all tugging their own directions and creating a lot of acrimony in their own ranks. In fact, this dissintengration of the old Reaganite coalition is why a number of prominent old reactionaries (now embraced by the "progressives" supporting Obama) are calling for a Democratic vote. Or maybe they're only calling for a Democratic vote in some states.... Fred Feldman wrote: > > I have come to the conclusion that voting for a > bourgeois party or a coalition involving bourgeois forces is not a > PRINCIPLED question. Even aside from the many circumstances in the > semicolonial world where this is just a sectarian dead end. > [snips] > Does voting for Obama cross class lines? To me the answer to that is YES. I > think that is obvious. > > Does that mean it is wrong from a working class or social-revolutionary > standpoint to do that in all questions. I don't think that is so. It is > determined concretely. A great deal of class-collaboration takes place every > day, and has to. Was the Soviet Union wrong to fight world war II in a > military alliance with US imperialism? No, that was a necessity of survival > -- and it was a necessary political act, not just a military one. How the > Soviet bureaucracy used that alliance against revolutionary struggles is > another question. > I agree entirely that some abstract set of religious principles isn't the point. This is the point of the earlier arguments about whether candidates who call themselves "socialist" are preferable to those that don't. Broader questions have much greater importance. For a materialist, context defines everything. As to drawing the class line at the ballot box, we are not in "the semicolonial world where this is just a sectarian dead end." Nor does this have much to do with the Soviet alliance with US imperialism sixty or seventy years ago. Neither McCain nor Palin are Hitlerites. The ballot is a mandate to rule from the governed to the governing. As I tell my liberal friends, regardless of what progressive notions you have in your mind or your heart when you cast your ballot, it is objectively vote of confidence in his agenda. That's how it's going to be seen and understood socially, and the rest is a matter between you and the Holy Ghost. My approach doesn't even pretend to be rooted in Leninism (which is open to all sorts of twistings and rationalizations), but by the experience of radicals here in the U.S. We don't give our mandate to people who asking for that mandate because they want to slaughter Indians or Mexicans. We don't give our mandate to the people who want to root economic prosperity in slavery. We don't give that mandate to people who believe they don't need to obtain that mandate from ALL of us. We don't give that mandate to people who believe it to be their divinely ordained or social Darwinian destiny to deny us basic human rights. We don't give that mandate to people who deny us our civil rights (which include our right to form parties, run candidates, etc.) Solidarity! Mark L. PS: However deplorable it seems to rationalize voting for Obama on the flimsiest of grounds, I find it doubly deplorable to use the McKinney campaign as a means of doing so. Indeed, it strikes me as much the same as the CP use of the Browder campaign to support FDR. From lnp3@panix.com Sat Nov 01 09:02:24 2008 Received: from mail2.panix.com ([166.84.1.73]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwHzc-0000WT-CX for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 09:02:24 -0600 Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4F0134801 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 11:02:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from louis.panix.com (cpe-66-108-163-221.nyc.res.rr.com [66.108.163.221]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ED64D833 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 11:02:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 11:02:19 -0400 To: activists and scholars in Marxist tradition From: Louis Proyect Subject: US may never release Uighurs from Guantánamo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Message-Id: <20081101150222.5ED64D833@mailbackend.panix.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 15:02:24 -0000 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/01/guantanamo-china No charges but US may never release Guant=E1namo Chinese Seventeen Chinese prisoners who have been held for nearly seven years=20 in Guant=E1namo Bay will be informed on Monday that they could spend=20 the rest of their lives behind bars, even though they face no charges=20 and have been told by a judge they should be freed. No country is willing to accept them and the US justice department=20 has now blocked moves for them to be allowed to go to the US=20 mainland, where they had been offered a home by refugee and Christian=20 organisations. The men's lawyer, Sabin Willett, is flying to Guant=E1namo Bay this=20 weekend to break the news to the men, who are members of the Uighur=20 ethnic group seeking autonomy from China. In a blunt and angry letter=20 to justice department lawyers, Willett spelled out what he thought of=20 the way the men had been treated. "After years of stalling and staying and appellate gamesmanship, you=20 pleaded no contest - they are not enemy combatants," Willett has=20 written. "You have never charged them with any crime." Last month a federal judge ruled that the men should be freed. "They=20 were on freedom's doorstep," said Willett. "The plane was at Gitmo.=20 The stateside Lutheran refugee services and the Uighur families and=20 Tallahassee clergy were ready to receive them." However, the justice=20 department appealed against the ruling and Willett claims this will=20 put the men into a potentially endless limbo. Yesterday Willett said his clients were "saddened" by the latest=20 events. The men, who are Muslims, were in Afghanistan in 2001 and=20 were captured by Pakistani troops and handed over to the US. So far,=20 more than 100 countries have been asked to take them as refugees but=20 none have agreed. Willett blamed US authorities for incorrectly=20 describing them as terrorists. According to the US justice department, the men "are linked to an=20 organisation that the state department has labelled to be a terrorist=20 entity, and it is beside the point that the organisation is not 'a=20 threat to us' because the law excluding members of such groups does=20 not require such proof." Willett is also angry the defence department will not agree to let=20 him meet his clients unless they are chained to the floor. He called=20 for this restriction to be lifted: "Just permit these men one shred=20 of human dignity." He added: "Americans are not supposed to treat=20 enemy prisoners of war this way under the service field manuals, or=20 the Geneva conventions - if anyone paid attention to the field=20 manuals or the Geneva conventions anymore." From lnp3@panix.com Sat Nov 01 09:06:46 2008 Received: from mail2.panix.com ([166.84.1.73]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwI3q-0000Wn-Co for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 09:06:46 -0600 Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11BA534813 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 11:06:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from louis.panix.com (cpe-66-108-163-221.nyc.res.rr.com [66.108.163.221]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5242D52D for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 11:06:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 11:06:43 -0400 To: activists and scholars in Marxist tradition From: Louis Proyect Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Message-Id: <20081101150645.E5242D52D@mailbackend.panix.com> Subject: [Marxism] Oliver Stone's Oedipal Problem X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 15:06:46 -0000 Counterpunch, October 31, 2008 Oliver Stone's Oedipal Problem Bush Ultra Lite By SAUL LANDAU and FARRAH HASSAN At a time when we need Marx's analytical abilities, Oliver Stone offers Freud. In his one-dimensional biopic, "W," we do not gain insight into how a less than brilliant president circumvented carefully constructed procedures to safeguard the military industrial complex. Instead, Stone offers a pastiche of biographical scenes, from Bush's raucous boozing days at Yale to his ascendancy to the Oval House and fateful decision to invade Iraq. In this cinematic attempt to pseudo-psychoanalyze Bush, Stone alludes to his Oedipal premise: W idolizing and simultaneously resenting his over achieving father and un-accepting mother. These cinematic allusions to a rich, dysfunctional family, visual hammers pounded on the audience's head, should somehow help us understand how this chronic underachiever booked the highest office of the land and led him to invade Iraq. full: http://www.counterpunch.com/landau10312008.html From binesi@gvtel.com Sat Nov 01 09:09:25 2008 Received: from mail.gvtel.com ([206.10.30.142]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwI6P-0000XH-BS for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 09:09:25 -0600 Received: from [64.235.81.159] (unverified [64.235.81.159]) by mail.gvtel.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 7.0.3) with ESMTP id for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 10:09:24 -0500 Message-ID: <490C7120.3080000@gvtel.com> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 10:09:20 -0500 From: David Thorstad User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Windows/20080914) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition References: <11083738.1225516759011.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <11083738.1225516759011.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Marxism] Last minute stab by rightist Dobson against Obama X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 15:09:25 -0000 Judging from the rank reformism rampant on this list, I take Walter's advice here as further confirmation of how far some former Marxists have sunk into liberalism. The very idea that the highly undemocratic "choice" offered by the criminal American ruling class merits a vote for an open warmonger like His Saintliness suggests a surrender that's right up there with the "renegade Kautsky." If even "progressive" bourgeois candidates like McKinney and Nader are not on the Georgia ballot, presumably no socialists are either. In that case, why not write in Betty Boop? Do you really believe it matters one iota how you vote? It isn't just write-ins that are not counted. When I was SWP banch organizer in Minneapolis eons ago, a Democrat party district leader called to report that in her rural district, both she and her sister voted for the SWP, but the SWP candidate got no votes in their district. This discussion shows how irrelevant most of the American left has become. Even urging a vote for a top capitalist oinker? Till now, I would have said, "Say it ain't so." Clearly, it is. David ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Walter Lippmann wrote: > JOAQUIN BUSTELO asked: > What would comrades do next Tuesday in my shoes? And it has to be > *consistent*: whatever I tell my neighbor or a Latino community meeting or > Cynthia McKinney if she comes back has to be the truth, what I actually did > November 4. I really don't know how to function any other way politically. > ========================================================================= > > If McKinney is not on the ballot, you should vote for Obama. > This is the real world, not an imaginary one. Do the right > thing and contribute to the biggest possible defeat of the > McCain-Palin-Bush trend in politics. Your individual vote > isn't likely to matter much, but in the context of efforts > to obstruct and deny voting rights, it's very important that > you exercise your franchise and defend everyone's right to. > > > Walter Lippmann > From lnp3@panix.com Sat Nov 01 09:26:13 2008 Received: from mail2.panix.com ([166.84.1.73]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwIMf-0000Yc-Bs for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 09:26:13 -0600 Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAE6834801 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 11:26:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from louis.panix.com (cpe-66-108-163-221.nyc.res.rr.com [66.108.163.221]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3188DC8D for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 11:26:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 11:26:06 -0400 To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition From: Louis Proyect In-Reply-To: <490C7120.3080000@gvtel.com> References: <11083738.1225516759011.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <490C7120.3080000@gvtel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Message-Id: <20081101152612.C3188DC8D@mailbackend.panix.com> Subject: [Marxism] Moderator's note X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 15:26:14 -0000 David wrote: >Judging from the rank reformism rampant on this list, I take Walter's >advice here as further confirmation of how far some former Marxists have >sunk into liberalism. The very idea that the highly undemocratic >"choice" offered by the criminal American ruling class merits a vote for >an open warmonger like His Saintliness suggests a surrender that's right >up there with the "renegade Kautsky." Comrades are certainly entitled to their views on this question, but we must refrain from these kinds of characterizations. A mailing list is a rather "confined" space and sharp language such as this can lead to the kinds of flame wars that destroyed a list that preceded this one. From ssschwartz8@gmail.com Sat Nov 01 09:34:54 2008 Received: from mu-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.134.185]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwIV4-0000Zv-IS for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 09:34:54 -0600 Received: by mu-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id w1so1693283mue.9 for ; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 08:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.103.23.20 with SMTP id a20mr6153163muj.128.1225553693016; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 08:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.103.213.2 with HTTP; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 08:34:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <685ad9b30811010834rd9bb1e4v77ed042e0c9df49e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 17:34:52 +0200 From: "yossi schwartz" To: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Subject: [Marxism] Last minute stab by rightist Dobson against Obama X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 15:34:55 -0000 For our popular Frontists who claim to be Marxists, voting for an imperialist party is not a problem. Big surprise.!!! However to slander Lenin in order to use him as a fig leaf is low. It was a major devise in the arsenal of the Stalinists, as deforming Marx was the trick of the Social Democracy's revisionism.. Any one who wants to use Lenin on this question should quote Lenin after he broke from the influence of Kautsky, rather than bringing in Kautsky's politics in the name of Lenin. From walterlx@earthlink.net Sat Nov 01 09:39:36 2008 Received: from elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.66]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwIZc-0000aP-Bm for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 09:39:36 -0600 Received: from [209.86.224.40] (helo=elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwIZW-0000QZ-Kl for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 11:39:30 -0400 Received: from 216.175.74.67 by webmail.earthlink.net with HTTP; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 11:39:30 -0400 Message-ID: <815722.1225553970638.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 11:39:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Walter Lippmann To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 584b452a2df9bf4e1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec794ea294009e0fb5ae6d6405bffc8b42fc350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.40 Subject: Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 15:39:36 -0000 LOUIS PROYECT writes: Comrades are certainly entitled to their views on this question, but=20 we must refrain from these kinds of characterizations. A mailing list=20 is a rather "confined" space and sharp language such as this can lead=20 to the kinds of flame wars that destroyed a list that preceded this one.=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D It's best to keep the discussion to the political issues in dispute and leave the personalized and nasty characterizations out of the postings.=20 Remember, there's nothing life or death going on here, it's electronic mail and exchanges of political viewpoints, nothing more nor less, and we'll all be back here on Wednesday discussing and arguing about what it all means in light of the results, if they are clear here, nor not. Walter Lippmann Los Angeles, California =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D WALTER LIPPMANN Los Angeles, California Editor-in-Chief, CubaNews http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaNews/ "Cuba - Un Para=C3=ADso bajo el bloqueo" =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From walterlx@earthlink.net Sat Nov 01 10:03:44 2008 Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.67]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwIwy-0000cI-9H for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 10:03:44 -0600 Received: from [209.86.224.40] (helo=elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwIwr-0004KG-Mz for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 12:03:37 -0400 Received: from 216.175.74.67 by webmail.earthlink.net with HTTP; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 12:03:36 -0400 Message-ID: <4527301.1225555417652.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 12:03:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Walter Lippmann To: marxmail Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 584b452a2df9bf4e1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79be5d9131b7dd63991409e98423dc9a26350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.40 Subject: [Marxism] Clint Eastwood's "The Changeling" X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 16:03:44 -0000 Saw and enjoyed this somewhat overlong mystery yesterday starring Angelina Jolie as the mother of a child who=20 disappeared in Los Angeles in 1928. Some months later, the LAPD finds a boy who looks similar to Jolie's sun but when she recognized he's not her child (among other things he's three-inches shorter and been circumcised) the LAPD tosses her in to the county hospital mental ward where she's violently sedated, but told she's be let free if she signs a statement saying that was wrong and the child was really hers. Jolie isn't glamorous as she is in other movies, and it's a bit overlong, but it held my attention. As it turns out in the narrative,=20 "a true story", the child was taken by a serial killer and, well, I won't tell you how it ends up. Roger Ebert and Kenneth Turan liked the movie a lot, but the NY Times complained about it. Here in Los Angeles we're having yet another serial killer on the loose now: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-serial1-2008nov01,0,1188783.story "The Changeling" reminded me also of another recent film, the French film TELL NO ONE. Both movies depict in graphic ways what can happen to anyone who disagrees with the way the police have decided that a case should be resolves. While in the end, one or a few honest cops helps unravel the situation, it's truly frightening to see, and in Eastwood's version it's terrifyingly graphically depicted, what the=20 cops can do to anyone who doesn't go along with their script. There's a very powerful depiction of the way the death penalty was carried out in the mid-1930s, as well: by hanging. Walter Lippmann Los Angeles, California =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D WALTER LIPPMANN Los Angeles, California Editor-in-Chief, CubaNews http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaNews/ "Cuba - Un Para=C3=ADso bajo el bloqueo" =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From ffeldman@bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 01 10:19:18 2008 Received: from vms173007pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.7]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwJC1-0000dG-UJ for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 10:19:18 -0600 Received: from office1pc ([138.89.80.188]) by vms173007.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0K9N00GY9XAINWE9@vms173007.mailsrvcs.net> for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 11:18:20 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 12:19:23 -0400 From: "Fred Feldman" To: , , Message-id: <30FA697B81ED43958A77A31507729C79@office1pc> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thread-index: Ack8PZnUQK5ULk+qQjSxHfMSp8AqLQ== Subject: [Marxism] NYT: "Specter of Deflation Lurks as Global Demand Drops " X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 16:19:18 -0000 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/01/business/economy/01deflation.html November 1, 2008 Specter of Deflation Lurks as Global Demand Drops By PETER S. GOODMAN As dozens of countries slip deeper into financial distress, a new threat may be gathering force within the American economy - the prospect that goods will pile up waiting for buyers and prices will fall, suffocating fresh investment and worsening joblessness for months or even years. The word for this is deflation, or declining prices, a term that gives economists chills. Deflation accompanied the Depression of the 1930s. Persistently falling prices also were at the heart of Japan's so-called lost decade after the catastrophic collapse of its real estate bubble at the end of the 1980s - a period in which some experts now find parallels to the American predicament. "That certainly is the snapshot of the risk I see," said Robert J. Barbera, chief economist at the research and trading firm ITG. "It is the crisis we face." With economies around the globe weakening, demand for oil, copper, grains and other commodities has diminished, bringing down prices of these raw materials. But prices have yet to decline noticeably for most goods and services, with one conspicuous exception - houses. Still, reduced demand is beginning to soften prices for a few products, like furniture and bedding, which are down slightly since the beginning of 2007, according to government data. Prices are also falling for some appliances, tools and hardware. Only a few months ago, American policy makers were worried about the reverse problem - rising prices, or inflation - as then-soaring costs for oil and food filtered through the economy. In July, average prices were 5.6 percent higher than a year earlier - the fastest pace of inflation since 1991. But by the end of September, annual inflation had dipped to 4.9 percent and was widely expected to go lower. The new worry is that in the worst case, the end of inflation may be the beginning of something malevolent: a long, slow retrenchment in which consumers and businesses worldwide lose the wherewithal to buy, sending prices down for many goods. Though still considered unlikely, that would prompt businesses to slow production and accelerate layoffs, taking more paychecks out of the economy and further weakening demand. The danger of this is the difficulty of a cure. Policy makers can generally choke off inflation by raising interest rates, dampening economic activity and reducing demand for goods. But as Japan discovered, an economy may remain ensnared by deflation for many years, even when interest rates are dropped to zero: falling prices make companies reluctant to invest even when credit is free. Through much of the 1990s, prices for property and many goods kept falling in Japan. As layoffs increased and purchasing power declined, prices fell lower still, in a downward spiral of diminishing fortunes. Some fear the American economy could be sinking toward a similar fate, if a recession is deep and prolonged, as consumers lose spending power just as much of Europe, Asia and Latin America succumb to a slowdown. "That's a meaningful risk at this point," said Nouriel Roubini, an economist at New York University's Stern School of Business, who forecast the financial crisis well in advance and has been warning of deflation for months. "We could get into a vicious circle of deepening malaise." Most economists - Mr. Roubini and Mr. Barbera included - say American policy makers have tools to avert the sort of deflationary black hole that captured Japan. Deflation fears last broke out in the United States in 2003, but the Federal Reserve defeated the menace with low interest rates that kept the economy growing. This time, the Fed is again being aggressive, dropping its target rate to 1 percent this week. And the government's various bailout plans have also pumped money into the economy. "If you print enough money, you can create inflation," said Kenneth S. Rogoff, a former chief economist at the International Monetary Fund and now a professor at Harvard. But even as American authorities unleash credit, the threat has intensified. Not since the Depression have so many countries faced so much trouble at once. The financial crisis has gone global, like a virus mutating in the face of every experimental cure. From South Korea to Iceland to Brazil, the pandemic has spread, bringing with it a tightening of credit that has starved even healthy companies of finance. "We're entering a really fierce global recession," Mr. Rogoff said. "A significant financial crisis has been allowed to morph into a full-fledged global panic. It's a very dangerous situation. The danger is that instead of having a few bad years, we'll have another lost decade." Global economic growth has flourished in recent years, much of it fertilized with borrowed investment. This raised kingdoms of houses in Florida and California, steel mills in Ukraine, slaughterhouses in Brazil and shopping malls in Turkey. That tide is now moving in reverse. Banks and other financial institutions are reckoning with hundreds of billions of dollars worth of disastrous investments. As they struggle to rebuild their capital, they are halting loans to many customers, demanding swift repayment from others and dumping assets - homes sold out of foreclosure, investments linked to mortgages and corporate loans. Selling is pushing prices down further, making the assets left on balance sheets worth less, in some cases prompting another round of sales. "You get this adverse feedback loop where assets keep falling in value," Mr. Barbera said. "You're essentially putting big downward pressure on the global economy." In past crises, like those that devastated Mexico in 1994 and much of Asia in 1997 and 1998, weak economies managed to recover by exporting aggressively, not least to the United States. But American consumers are battered this time. After years of borrowing against homes and tapping credit cards, consumers are pulling back. >From Asia to Latin America, exports are slowing and should continue to do so as the global appetite shrinks. This is spawning fears that major producers like China and India - which vastly expanded production capacity in recent years - will have to dump products on world markets to keep factories running and stave off unemployment, pressing prices lower. Earlier this year, some analysts suggested that American businesses might continue to prosper, even as consumers pulled back at home, by selling into foreign markets. Caterpillar, the construction equipment manufacturer, might suffer declining sales in the United States, the argument went, but huge projects from Russia to Dubai required front-end loaders. Australia and Brazil needed earth-movers to expand mining operations as they sent iron ore toward smelters in Northeast Asia. But as much of the planet now struggles, Caterpillar is worried. "Next year, no doubt, will be a challenge," Caterpillar's chief executive, James W. Owens, recently warned. China has long been at the center of claims that the world could keep growing regardless of American troubles. China has been importing cotton from India and the United States; electronics components from South Korea, Malaysia and Taiwan; timber from Russia and Africa; and oil from the Middle East. But many of the finished goods China produces with these materials have ultimately landed in the United States, Europe and Japan. When consumers pull back in those countries, Chinese factories feel the impact, along with their suppliers around the globe. Fewer laptop computers shipped from China spells less demand for chips. Last week, Toshiba - Japan's largest chip maker - said it lost $275 million from July to September, blaming its troubles on a world glut. Lower demand for flat-screen televisions means less need for flat-panel glass displays. This month, Samsung, the Korean electronics giant, said a global oversupply in that item caused its biggest dip in quarterly profits in three years. Now, a glut of products may be building in the United States. Orders for trucks used by business have plummeted. Investments in industrial equipment are declining. Yet inventories have grown. "I worry about an economy that looks like Japan," said Barry P. Bosworth, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. "We're going to be struggling with how to put this back together again for several more years." From dave.walters@comcast.net Sat Nov 01 10:43:11 2008 Received: from qmta08.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.80]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwJZ9-0000eq-3k for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 10:43:11 -0600 Received: from OMTA08.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.12]) by QMTA08.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id ZoHY1a00J0FhH24A8sj5pT; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 16:43:05 +0000 Received: from c-98-210-137-164.hsd1.ca.comcast.net ([98.210.137.164]) by OMTA08.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Zsj31a00E3Z04Mu8Usj4ZN; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 16:43:04 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=kuZ98b3xq6MA:10 a=xZj3omqTkscA:10 a=rITDv7nW5hcA:10 a=V8QGVBANCMQQdlx4UsgA:9 a=o7PS9HTMp4ApylGDRShuqFpS7U4A:4 a=LY0hPdMaydYA:10 Message-ID: <490C8717.2090106@comcast.net> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 09:43:03 -0700 From: David Walters User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Macintosh/20080914) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Marxism] Clint Eastwood's "The Changeling" X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 16:43:11 -0000 On Walter's recommendation I'll go see it. We have, it seems, very similar tastes in movies. One of things that attracts me to this movie is that it's a period piece on LA. As a city, I've never liked LA. Perhaps it was a combination of New Yorker prejudice that many NYers harbor about LA or it was lack of seriously good pizza. I certainly didn't like it when I lived there. I'm not sure. But LA has such a fascinating history that almost all the movies I've seen that are done seriously that involve historical events or periods have been excellent. The two movies I'm thinking of were Chinatown and LA Confidential. Also, the fact that Clint Eastwood directs it makes this movie even more attractive. David From lnp3@panix.com Sat Nov 01 10:50:59 2008 Received: from mail2.panix.com ([166.84.1.73]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwJgh-0000fR-F5 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 10:50:59 -0600 Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD47534810 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 12:50:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from louis.panix.com (cpe-66-108-163-221.nyc.res.rr.com [66.108.163.221]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC0091BB7 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 12:50:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 12:50:50 -0400 To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition From: Louis Proyect In-Reply-To: <490C8717.2090106@comcast.net> References: <490C8717.2090106@comcast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Message-Id: <20081101165057.AC0091BB7@mailbackend.panix.com> Subject: Re: [Marxism] Clint Eastwood's "The Changeling" X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 16:50:59 -0000 >Also, the fact that Clint Eastwood directs it makes this movie even more >attractive. > >David Plus, along with Stephen Spielberg, Martin Scorsese and George Lucas, he is one of our neglected masters. From sartesian@earthlink.net Sat Nov 01 11:10:05 2008 Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.67]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwJzB-0000gj-K2 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 11:10:05 -0600 Received: from [69.86.1.8] (helo=dmsthinkpad) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwJz4-0008Kp-7R for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:09:58 -0400 Message-ID: From: "S. Artesian" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" References: <7b8a676d0810301704m2f18bbd4sfe409a620e0b1125@mail.gmail.com> <2B670CAABD3642848B65FAA1AC038D20@dmsthinkpad> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 13:10:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-ELNK-Trace: cb12c76ec1f5bb3a85338a7d01cb3b6a7e972de0d01da94068103e369f5910c42ad94b0b71f9957d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.86.1.8 Subject: Re: [Marxism] The ruling class in the United States of America istheentire capitalist class! X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 17:10:06 -0000 Speaking of the ruling class and its heroes, nobody gets accorded more hero status , now that Greenspan has been shown, for the third time, to be nothing more than an hack ideologue, than Warren Buffett. The Wall Street Journal weekend edition, Nov 1-2, has an interesting article called: "The Other Reason for Warren Buffett's Success" --Yes, There Is His Stock-Picking Prowess, But Exclusive Deals Add to Berkshire' Fortunes-- Among some of the interesting facts about the common man's billionaire portfolio is-- that it no longer consists, in the main, of publicly trade securities. "As recently as 1995, 73.5% of Berkshire's total assets consisted of a portfolio of publicly traded stocks.... As of June 30 [2008] though, Berkshire's stockholdings made up just 25% of its assets. He has been buying private firms outright and landing 'sweetheart' deals in public companies. Since the beginning of 2006, Berkshire has spent nearly $17 billion buying private companies lock, stock, and barrel.. Meanwhile on the sweetheart front, in 2008 alone, Mr. Buffett has sunk $5 billion into Goldman Sachs Group, $3 billion into GE, $3 billion into Dow Chemical, and $6.5 billion into the merger of Mars Inc. with Wm. Wrigley Jr. Co-- all with preferential terms.... In his latest round of sweetheart deals, he gets a generous upside and virtually eliminates any downside, a 'heads I win, tails I win' structure that other investors can only dream about. ...Mr. Buffett tries to secure a margine of safety. That term...means that the price is so far below the business's underlying value that severe loss is improbable." Like I said, securities are not long term investments, but only trading vehicles, unless of course you are selling the securities, then flogging the "long term" is a time-proven method of separating fools from their money. From binesi@gvtel.com Sat Nov 01 11:10:36 2008 Received: from mail.gvtel.com ([206.10.30.142]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwJzg-0000gx-2V for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 11:10:36 -0600 Received: from [64.235.81.188] (unverified [64.235.81.188]) by mail.gvtel.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 7.0.3) with ESMTP id for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 12:10:35 -0500 Message-ID: <490C8D87.7010907@gvtel.com> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 12:10:31 -0500 From: David Thorstad User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Windows/20080914) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition References: <11083738.1225516759011.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <490C7120.3080000@gvtel.com> <20081101152612.C3188DC8D@mailbackend.panix.com> In-Reply-To: <20081101152612.C3188DC8D@mailbackend.panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 17:10:36 -0000 Huh? And this after both Fred Feldman and Walter Lippmann have recently compared me to a Nazi because of my opposition to same-sex marriage (ven if it was a "left" Nazi in Feldman's case)! I note that prior to my "sharp" comment, the word "shit" was used to describe Walter. I have never resorted to name calling (as Walter has), and, frankly, do not consider my comment to be overly "sharp." The jist of my post was that it doesn't matter who you vote for in the phoney baloney capitalist charade of "elections," and urging a vote for the top Democrat is worthy of comparison to Kautsky. Here, some wisdom from Lenin's /The Proletarian Revolution and the Renegade Kautsky/ (1918--90 years ago): Elections "*never* *decide* important questions under bourgeois democracy, which are decided by the stock exchange and banks." That said, I do hope my comments don't lead to "flame wars." That was not not my intention at all. David ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Louis Proyect wrote: >
David wrote: >> Judging from the rank reformism rampant on this list, I take Walter's >> advice here as further confirmation of how far some former Marxists have >> sunk into liberalism. The very idea that the highly undemocratic >> "choice" offered by the criminal American ruling class merits a vote for >> an open warmonger like His Saintliness suggests a surrender that's right >> up there with the "renegade Kautsky." > > Comrades are certainly entitled to their views on this question, but > we must refrain from these kinds of characterizations. A mailing list > is a rather "confined" space and sharp language such as this can lead > to the kinds of flame wars that destroyed a list that preceded this one. > > >
> From markalause@gmail.com Sat Nov 01 11:12:28 2008 Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.188]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwK1U-0000hF-Cn for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 11:12:28 -0600 Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id e27so928519nfd.9 for ; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 10:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.210.111.4 with SMTP id j4mr15187616ebc.170.1225559530895; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 10:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.210.86.18 with HTTP; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 10:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 13:12:10 -0400 From: "Mark Lause" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" In-Reply-To: <685ad9b30811010834rd9bb1e4v77ed042e0c9df49e@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <685ad9b30811010834rd9bb1e4v77ed042e0c9df49e@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Marxism] Last minute stab by rightist Dobson against Obama X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 17:12:28 -0000 I don't think voting for a bourgeois party makes you a popular frontist. If memory serves, a popular front historically involves people in a workers' party entering a front with a bourgeois party. So, it seems to me that being a popular frontist would be way to the left of what we're discussing here. The essential point here doesn't even require addressing the question of party. To use the old analogies I raised, it might have been quite reasonable for abolitionists to have supported an antislavery Whig or an antislavery Democrat or not to have run an independent abolitionist candidate against them. So, even allowing for the much more coherent and standardized structure of modern political parties, the question seems reasonable if we had a genuine radical running on a major party ticket. And, yes, things are parched in the desert of American politics. So let's just look for a straightforward liberal.... Does anybody seriously think that this is an honest description of Obama? And what evidence is there for that? ML From mschiller@pobox.com Sat Nov 01 11:17:56 2008 Received: from a-sasl-fastnet.sasl.smtp.pobox.com ([207.106.133.19] helo=sasl.smtp.pobox.com) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwK6m-0000hq-1R for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 11:17:56 -0600 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-sasl-fastnet.sasl.smtp.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B9A577944 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 13:17:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.0.66] (unknown [216.151.21.249]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by a-sasl-fastnet.sasl.smtp.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id ABB5477943 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 13:17:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <61A18694-E1CD-42FA-A816-9825DAE9408C@pobox.com> From: martin To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition In-Reply-To: <641718A6991741F6BABE4CE6FEC1FF6A@dmsthinkpad> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) X-Priority: 3 Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 10:17:09 -0700 References: <7b8a676d0810311957y4fa43ce1gf1cc6a3a97f3b6e1@mail.gmail.com> <641718A6991741F6BABE4CE6FEC1FF6A@dmsthinkpad> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.929.2) X-Pobox-Relay-ID: 0207ED3E-A839-11DD-963A-9CEDC82D7133-02456998!a-sasl-fastnet.pobox.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] If you want to identify the ruling class, you have to decide what is a social class. X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 17:17:56 -0000 On Oct 31, 2008, at 10:57 PM, S. Artesian wrote: > Clinton, as it was reported, stopped and stared at > Rubin, and said, "You mean to tell me that the economic policy of the > President depends on the approval of a handful of bond traders on Wall > Street?" Rubin told him that indeed it did. But the bond traders were simply following policy decisions of their respective corporations. Humans do not constitute a 'ruling class'. They benefit from the rules that are generated by corporate policy, and the corporate policy is generated by a networking feature of corporate governance ie. overlap within boards of directors. It's a self-perpetuating, self-correcting system, using a meat network to communicate and correct. martin From sartesian@earthlink.net Sat Nov 01 11:18:27 2008 Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.70]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwK7H-0000iS-P3 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 11:18:27 -0600 Received: from [69.86.1.8] (helo=dmsthinkpad) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwK7B-0003AK-V6 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:18:22 -0400 Message-ID: From: "S. Artesian" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" References: <490C8717.2090106@comcast.net> <20081101165057.AC0091BB7@mailbackend.panix.com> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 13:18:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-ELNK-Trace: cb12c76ec1f5bb3a85338a7d01cb3b6a7e972de0d01da940cd8cd4a90858902e46162f21d29508ec350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.86.1.8 Subject: Re: [Marxism] Clint Eastwood's "The Changeling" X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 17:18:28 -0000 Do I detect more than a note of sarcasm? I sure hope so, because every movie Spielberg makes is derivative of someone elses work, which makes him the perfect poster boy for the modern era of derivative capitalism, and for Hollywood itself which is, literally, nothing without derivatives. He made one great movie, IMO, Jaws, and that of course was a masterpiece of derivativeness-- from Moby Dick. Lucas? Future medieval fascism, complete with racism. Scorcese? Good camera work, great dialogue, but plots, themes of such unrelieved pettiness, I'm screaming for the movie to be over 30 minutes after it starts. And Eastwood? Give me Spike Lee anyday-- for direction, sequencing, story, editing. By the way-- if anybody needs movie recommendations how about-- I Served the King of England, and A Secret ? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louis Proyect" To: Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] Clint Eastwood's "The Changeling" From sartesian@earthlink.net Sat Nov 01 11:22:39 2008 Received: from elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.65]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwKBL-0000is-Hh for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 11:22:39 -0600 Received: from [69.86.1.8] (helo=dmsthinkpad) by elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwKBF-0003P0-4F for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:22:33 -0400 Message-ID: From: "S. Artesian" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" References: <7b8a676d0810311957y4fa43ce1gf1cc6a3a97f3b6e1@mail.gmail.com><641718A6991741F6BABE4CE6FEC1FF6A@dmsthinkpad> <61A18694-E1CD-42FA-A816-9825DAE9408C@pobox.com> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 13:22:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-ELNK-Trace: cb12c76ec1f5bb3a85338a7d01cb3b6a7e972de0d01da94015c086a9e8edf45e33ecbdb37d613e6f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.86.1.8 Subject: Re: [Marxism] If you want to identify the ruling class, you have to decide what is a social class. X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 17:22:39 -0000 I belive the term "bond traders" was used by Clinton to identify, not the actual traders on the floor of the exchanges that do the trading, but as a "colloquialism" for the heads of the investment banks, the (then) 19 banks designated Primary Dealers of US Treasury instruments. ----- Original Message ----- From: "martin" To: Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] If you want to identify the ruling class, you have to decide what is a social class. > > On Oct 31, 2008, at 10:57 PM, S. Artesian wrote: > >> Clinton, as it was reported, stopped and stared at >> Rubin, and said, "You mean to tell me that the economic policy of the >> President depends on the approval of a handful of bond traders on Wall >> Street?" Rubin told him that indeed it did. > > But the bond traders were simply following policy decisions of their > respective corporations. Humans do not constitute a 'ruling class'. > They benefit from the rules that are generated by corporate policy, > and the corporate policy is generated by a networking feature of > corporate governance ie. overlap within boards of directors. It's a > self-perpetuating, self-correcting system, using a meat network to > communicate and correct. > > martin > > ________________________________________________ > YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu > Set your options at: > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/sartesian%40earthlink.net From cbcox@ilstu.edu Sat Nov 01 11:55:38 2008 Received: from smtp2.ilstu.edu ([138.87.124.35] helo=smtp.ilstu.edu) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwKhG-0000lY-Hr for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 11:55:38 -0600 Received: from ilstu.edu (unknown [10.102.5.124]) by smtp.ilstu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B153F6C12 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 12:55:32 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <490C9816.2D8EEB9E@ilstu.edu> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 12:55:34 -0500 From: Carrol Cox X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition References: <490C8717.2090106@comcast.net> <20081101165057.AC0091BB7@mailbackend.panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Marxism] Clint Eastwood's "The Changeling" X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 17:55:38 -0000 Louis Proyect wrote: > > >Also, the fact that Clint Eastwood directs it makes this movie even more > >attractive. > > > >David > > Plus, along with Stephen Spielberg, Martin Scorsese and George Lucas, > he is one of our neglected masters. How neglected? It always struck me that he was pretty widely recognized. I agree (most of) his movies are excellent. Carrol From mschiller@pobox.com Sat Nov 01 12:07:07 2008 Received: from a-sasl-fastnet.sasl.smtp.pobox.com ([207.106.133.19] helo=sasl.smtp.pobox.com) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwKsN-0000mw-Bp for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 12:07:07 -0600 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-sasl-fastnet.sasl.smtp.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D87AD7408F for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 14:07:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.0.66] (unknown [216.151.21.249]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by a-sasl-fastnet.sasl.smtp.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6E5747408E for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 14:06:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: From: martin To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) X-Priority: 3 Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 11:06:21 -0700 References: <7b8a676d0810311957y4fa43ce1gf1cc6a3a97f3b6e1@mail.gmail.com><641718A6991741F6BABE4CE6FEC1FF6A@dmsthinkpad> <61A18694-E1CD-42FA-A816-9825DAE9408C@pobox.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.929.2) X-Pobox-Relay-ID: E1FB1AAA-A83F-11DD-A217-9CEDC82D7133-02456998!a-sasl-fastnet.pobox.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] If you want to identify the ruling class, you have to decide what is a social class. X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 18:07:07 -0000 On Nov 1, 2008, at 10:22 AM, S. Artesian wrote: > I belive the term "bond traders" was used by Clinton to identify, > not the > actual traders on the floor of the exchanges that do the trading, > but as a > "colloquialism" for the heads of the investment banks, the (then) > 19 banks > designated Primary Dealers of US Treasury instruments. You seem to be trying to pin down some human beings to take responsibility for our corporate rulers. That cursed confusion of corporations and humans strikes again. martin From lnp3@panix.com Sat Nov 01 12:08:15 2008 Received: from mail2.panix.com ([166.84.1.73]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwKtT-0000nA-Af for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 12:08:15 -0600 Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6EE83480E for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 14:08:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from louis.panix.com (cpe-66-108-163-221.nyc.res.rr.com [66.108.163.221]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97BADD285 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 14:08:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:08:05 -0400 To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition From: Louis Proyect In-Reply-To: <490C9816.2D8EEB9E@ilstu.edu> References: <490C8717.2090106@comcast.net> <20081101165057.AC0091BB7@mailbackend.panix.com> <490C9816.2D8EEB9E@ilstu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Message-Id: <20081101180813.97BADD285@mailbackend.panix.com> Subject: Re: [Marxism] Clint Eastwood's "The Changeling" X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 18:08:15 -0000 >How neglected? It always struck me that he was pretty widely recognized. >I agree (most of) his movies are excellent. > >Carrol I was being ironic. From ssschwartz8@gmail.com Sat Nov 01 12:08:18 2008 Received: from mu-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.134.188]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwKtV-0000nG-L1 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 12:08:18 -0600 Received: by mu-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id w1so1762016mue.9 for ; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 11:08:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.103.212.20 with SMTP id o20mr6230199muq.22.1225562895833; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 11:08:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.103.213.2 with HTTP; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 11:08:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <685ad9b30811011108h5611d54bl9b7f89b63adfaf8c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 20:08:15 +0200 From: "yossi schwartz" To: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Subject: [Marxism] Last minute stab by rightist Dobson against Obama X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 18:08:19 -0000 The essence of the politics of Popular Front is the subordination of the working class to the ruling class. In the US this politics in the 1930s was to support the government of Franklin Roosevelt. Today at best we can characterize Obama as a pale copy of Roosevelt. Thus to tell people who call to vote for him that they are Popular Frontist is an exaggeration in their favor. Either we fight to over throw this system and replace it with workers states as transition to socialism and thus for a revolutionary party of the working class independent from all the capitalist parties or we play a reformist game leading to defeats not only of the working class but o the middle class the reformists believe they represent honestly while in reality they serve only the ruling class. From lnp3@panix.com Sat Nov 01 12:29:13 2008 Received: from mail2.panix.com ([166.84.1.73]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwLDk-0000oL-W9 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 12:29:13 -0600 Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5976F34809 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 14:29:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from louis.panix.com (cpe-66-108-163-221.nyc.res.rr.com [66.108.163.221]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4286EDA81 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 14:29:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:29:09 -0400 To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition From: Louis Proyect In-Reply-To: <685ad9b30811011108h5611d54bl9b7f89b63adfaf8c@mail.gmail.co m> References: <685ad9b30811011108h5611d54bl9b7f89b63adfaf8c@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Message-Id: <20081101182912.4286EDA81@mailbackend.panix.com> Subject: Re: [Marxism] Last minute stab by rightist Dobson against Obama X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 18:29:13 -0000 Yossi wrote: >Either we fight to over throw this system and replace it with workers states >as transition to socialism and thus for a revolutionary party of the >working class independent from all the capitalist parties or we play a >reformist game leading to defeats not only of the working class but o the >middle class the reformists believe they represent honestly while in reality >they serve only the ruling class. Yossi, don't you realize how sterile this kind of appeal is? You are not arguing with people on Daily Kos or the Nation Magazine. People subscribe to the Marxism list because they are for a revolutionary party and socialist revolution. The debates occur over how to achieve those goals. Furthermore, don't you realize how *odd* you appear when you "preach to the choir" in this fashion? If you really want to advance the discussion here, you must learn how to avoid glittering generalities as my 7th grade English teacher once referred to them. From schaffer@optonline.net Sat Nov 01 12:44:27 2008 Received: from mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net ([167.206.4.200]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwLSV-0000p7-Ai for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 12:44:27 -0600 Received: from BNW113-C0186M.local (ool-4579cfab.dyn.optonline.net [69.121.207.171]) by mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0K9O00A7Y41XZBM0@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:44:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:44:18 -0400 From: Les Schaffer In-reply-to: To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition Message-id: <490CA382.20001@optonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <490C8717.2090106@comcast.net> <20081101165057.AC0091BB7@mailbackend.panix.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Macintosh/20080914) Subject: Re: [Marxism] Clint Eastwood's "The Changeling" X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 18:44:27 -0000 S. Artesian wrote: > Do I detect more than a note of sarcasm? I sure hope so, because every > movie Spielberg makes is derivative of someone elses work, which makes him > the perfect poster boy for the modern era of derivative capitalism, and for > Hollywood itself which is, literally, nothing without derivatives. > > did Hollywood do a lot of financing via these schemes??? > Give me Spike Lee anyday-- for direction, sequencing, story, editing. > > the best: Inside Man .... with great opening credits that rival Hitchcock/Hermann ... and just discovered on IMDB he's making a sequel...Lee into derivatives now? Les From adambrichmond@yahoo.com Sat Nov 01 12:47:32 2008 Received: from web54604.mail.re2.yahoo.com ([206.190.49.174]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwLVU-0000q2-FN for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 12:47:32 -0600 Received: (qmail 809 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Nov 2008 18:47:25 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: Hh2up3AVM1l.ePvuF6JnXMndMhgquFkbdo3aryWuaF2od52RYgzgrby4yaihUMTd211aRvhZlPPxyEvBCsAboYo2368N73nlZ2HNDomkc_oRfVFDFLp1E_74fJHFrIcDwxaNyZdYfUIPPk1DYiWjfiZna_.z8x9R46b5B34- Received: from [71.146.10.140] by web54604.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 11:47:24 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.7.247.3 Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 11:47:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Adam Richmond To: Marxism List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <144521.802.qm@web54604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Subject: [Marxism] Obama/Biden's statements against same sex marriage used by right X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 18:47:32 -0000 I just received a mailing from the reactionary "Yes on 8" targeting African American voters. It prominently features a photo of Barack Obama with one of his many quotes against gay marriage (I'm not in favor of gay marriage...) with Biden's on the back (Barack Obama nor I support redefining from a civil side what constitutes marriage. We do not support that.) Obama has come out against Prop 8, but this position is in contradiction to his overall policies opposing same sex marriage. In response, on a razor's edge, Geoff Kors, he director of the No on 8 campaign, issued a letter denouncing the ad. Unfortunately for him Obama has placed the campaign against Prop 8 in jeopardy. In failing to aggressively oppose Prop 8, the right is able to exploit Obama's cowardly overall orientation to this issue. This is line with the overall performance of the Democrats on LGBT issues. They let gays have a seat at the table of the Democratic party, and then kneecap the struggle at every turn. The LGBT movement must be independent of the Democratic Party in order to clearly announce to the LGBT masses and our supporters who are friends and enemies are. Obama has proved himself to be an obstacle. Adam Richmond From schaffer@optonline.net Sat Nov 01 12:52:33 2008 Received: from mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net ([167.206.4.199]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwLaL-0000qn-EO for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 12:52:33 -0600 Received: from BNW113-C0186M.local (ool-4579cfab.dyn.optonline.net [69.121.207.171]) by mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0K9O00KS34FFEL10@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:52:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:52:22 -0400 From: Les Schaffer In-reply-to: To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition Message-id: <490CA566.3020205@optonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <7b8a676d0810301704m2f18bbd4sfe409a620e0b1125@mail.gmail.com> <2B670CAABD3642848B65FAA1AC038D20@dmsthinkpad> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Macintosh/20080914) Subject: Re: [Marxism] The ruling class in the United States of America istheentire capitalist class! X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 18:52:33 -0000 S. Artesian wrote: > Speaking of the ruling class and its heroes, nobody gets accorded more hero > status , now that Greenspan has been shown, for the third time, to be > nothing more than an hack ideologue, than Warren Buffett. speaking of Warren Buffet ... i was in Border's Bookstore last night with an old friend, looking thru the Math and Science sections, finding nothing but Physics for Dummies, Quantum Mechanics Demystified, and so forth. directly behind this row of books was the economics and finance section. i was amazed how many serious, math-based books there were on hedge funds, derivatives, and all that stuff. plus, an entire row on Buffet that rivaled the omnipresent Einstein row over in physics land. Les From ffeldman@bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 01 12:59:43 2008 Received: from vms173005pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.5]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwLhH-0000rN-Bq for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 12:59:43 -0600 Received: from office1pc ([138.89.80.188]) by vms173005.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0K9O00HJU4RC7Z71@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:59:37 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:59:49 -0400 From: "Fred Feldman" To: Message-id: <20881C17E2964AFFBA21483C30AD437A@office1pc> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thread-index: Ack8VANtjF28U6iCQc+SA8m2MDp/EQ== Subject: [Marxism] Today's report on purged voters, other keep-the-voters-away gimmicks X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 18:59:43 -0000 This is the latest I find on vote stealing and manipulation efforts. Note that in Florida, moves to disenfranchise voters through purging voting rolls have had more success. Fred Feldman http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/10/31/2008-10-31_as_number_of_ new_voters_swells_so_do_fea.html As number of new voters swells, so do fears that they won't be counted BY KENNETH R. BAZINET and GREG B. SMITH DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS Saturday, November 1st 2008, 1:51 AM A huge surge of new voters could swamp the nation's ill-prepared election systems, creating major headaches and possible vote challenges Tuesday, officials are warning. A stunning 184 million citizens have registered to vote for this election, the National Association of Secretaries of State announced Friday. That's a 28% jump over the 143 million registered to vote in the 2004 presidential election. RELATED: OH, MAC, YOU HAD TO TAKE THE LOW ROAD! And officials predict a turnout of 130 to 140 million, way more than the 122 million who voted four ago, which itself provided the highest turnout since Richard Nixon beat Hubert Humphrey in 1968. As a result, this year will likely be worse than 2004, when a wave of voters overwhelmed polling stations in battleground states like Ohio. "It's going to be really long lines," predicted Larry Norden of the Brennan Center for Justice at the NYU School of Law. RELATED: BARACK'S BUCK BLITZ ADS UP The proof is in the huge turnout for early voting in states around the nation where waits stretching for as many as seven hours have become the accepted norm, Norden said. "It's going to make for a really long Election Day and unfortunately some people don't have the time to wait," he said. If the election is a blowout, long lines are merely a headache. If the election is close, people may not get to vote - and results could be called into question. RELATED: McCAINIACS SAY NEW MATH = WIN The biggest issue is new voters whose eligibility is easier to challenge. Already campaigns have been launched in two swing states, Ohio and Florida, to disqualify new voters whose voter registration conflicts with other databases. In Ohio, the U.S. Supreme Court rejected a GOP attempt to challenge 200,000 voters, and the U.S. Department of Justice refused to intervene. In Florida, a "No Match, No Vote" law checking voter registration against various governmental databases survived a court challenge. A lower court upheld a challenge to the law by the NAACP, but the law was reinstated on appeal and went into effect Sept. 8. As of last week 9,000 "no match" voters had been flagged. In Florida, site of the 2000 election debacle, voting machines are also an issue. Palm Beach County, home of the notorious "hanging chad," ditched paper ballots for touchscreen machines. Unfortunately, during a vote this year on a circuit judge, phantom votes turned up. Electioneering chicanery meant to keep poor and minority voters at home has erupted around the country in recent weeks, campaign officials reported. Some examples: In states like New Mexico, Nevada, Colorado and Arizona, Latino voters received telephone calls from people who claimed that they could vote by phone to avoid long lines at the polls. In predominantly African-American West Philadelphia, leaflets turned up falsely warning of arrests at the polls for voters with outstanding parking tickets. Flyers with an authentic-looking Virginia state seal told voters in the Hampton Roads region they could avoid lines at the polls by voting next Wednesday - a day after the balloting nationwide. In St. Louis officials found that a woman dead for months cast an absentee ballot in the presidential primary. From cbcox@ilstu.edu Sat Nov 01 13:15:47 2008 Received: from smtp2.ilstu.edu ([138.87.124.35] helo=smtp.ilstu.edu) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwLwp-0000sE-83 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:15:47 -0600 Received: from ilstu.edu (unknown [10.102.5.124]) by smtp.ilstu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 643356C3F for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 14:15:41 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <490CAADF.279F95E@ilstu.edu> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:15:43 -0500 From: Carrol Cox X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition References: <490C8717.2090106@comcast.net> <20081101165057.AC0091BB7@mailbackend.panix.com> <490C9816.2D8EEB9E@ilstu.edu> <20081101180813.97BADD285@mailbackend.panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Marxism] Clint Eastwood's "The Changeling" X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 19:15:47 -0000 Louis Proyect wrote: > > >How neglected? It always struck me that he was pretty widely recognized. > >I agree (most of) his movies are excellent. > > > >Carrol > > I was being ironic. Even sarcasm seldom travels well in e-mail! But then I didn't pay much attention to your list before replying. Carrol From lnp3@panix.com Sat Nov 01 13:28:58 2008 Received: from mail2.panix.com ([166.84.1.73]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwM9a-0000u3-41 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:28:58 -0600 Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA6E234807 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 15:28:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from louis.panix.com (cpe-66-108-163-221.nyc.res.rr.com [66.108.163.221]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7F94D307 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 15:28:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 15:28:53 -0400 To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition From: Louis Proyect Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Message-Id: <20081101192856.B7F94D307@mailbackend.panix.com> Subject: [Marxism] Would Obama withdraw from Iraq? X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 19:28:58 -0000 http://www.thenation.com/blogs/dreyfuss/378887/obama_and_iraq?rel=hpbox From cbcox@ilstu.edu Sat Nov 01 13:32:58 2008 Received: from smtp2.ilstu.edu ([138.87.124.35] helo=smtp.ilstu.edu) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwMDS-0000us-An for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:32:58 -0600 Received: from ilstu.edu (unknown [10.102.5.124]) by smtp.ilstu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1ECE6C61 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 14:32:52 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <490CAEE7.2C0C201A@ilstu.edu> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:32:55 -0500 From: Carrol Cox X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition References: <166949.89618.qm@web88007.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Marxism] Why Gay Marriage Sucks - More To Digest and Still VoteNoon Prop 8 X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 19:32:58 -0000 Pance Stojkovski wrote: >=20 > >> Carrol Cox wrote > >> in fact Marx himself prepared a questionnaire of (if I > >> remember correctly) some 200 questions which was designed to > >> transform the person answering the questions. >=20 > > David Pic=F3n =C1lvarez wrote: > > Is this somewhere in the MIA? I'd be quite curious to > > read it. > > >=20 > I'm curious too. I searched MIA and found this in Volume 24: > http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/cw/volume24/index.htm >=20 > but the relevant chapter has not been transcribed yet: > Workers' Questionnaire (Marx) - page 328. >=20 > Is that it? I don't know. What is the date? My fucking eyes are so bad I can't even read the volume #s clearly on the MECW, and I've apparently misplaced Vol. 24. As I remember Ollman's presentation, it was written during the last year or two of Marx's life. Jan is away for the weekend. When she returns I'll ask her to look through the volumes for it. Carrol >=20 > pance. >=20 > ________________________________________________ > YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu > Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism= /cbcox%40ilstu.edu From dbmcdonald@comcast.net Sat Nov 01 13:35:12 2008 Received: from qmta09.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.96]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwMFc-0000vJ-JX for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:35:12 -0600 Received: from OMTA08.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.12]) by QMTA09.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Zp2a1a00U0FhH24A9vb6DN; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 19:35:06 +0000 Received: from david-mcdonalds-computer.local ([76.104.203.124]) by OMTA08.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Zvb51a00k2hZ4oC8Uvb6ux; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 19:35:06 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=5vax9iqzCloA:10 a=jCwFP4luf0sA:10 a=Z6TVjsD46iDFSHmcJzgA:9 a=ugf1kBC-lnBFnNSo35YA:7 a=B-EGg3UsIBQb86CRihl6U_T293sA:4 a=iYlkOlhu7C0A:10 Message-ID: <490CAF64.6030504@comcast.net> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 12:35:00 -0700 From: David McDonald User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (Macintosh/20080213) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Marxism] Last-minute stab by rightist Dobson against Obama X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 19:35:13 -0000 Fred writes: I think the election of Obama is not simply a lesser evil, but an actual step FORWARD for the people of this country. One of the points I keep making is that Obama does not just advocate change. Because of his nationality, HIS ELECTION IS CHANGE AND FOR THE BETTER. And it is taking place as part of a broader shift that is more favorable to us. My support for McKinney and Clemente is based on estimating them as a vanguard expression of this process. If some comrades think that crossing class lines in a polling booth is some mortal sin, well, I don't. But just in case, Joaquin can always go to confession on Sunday and be absolved. He's lucky. I would have to wait for Yom Kippur. David responds: I'd like to thank Fred and Joaquin in particular for bringing flexible (some would say and have said, reformist) thinking to the discussion of Obama's candidacy. I have decided to vote for Obama. Although tending that way for some time, my decision was solidified by something that happened in the Martin Luther King Celebration Committee here in Seattle. This Committee is the longest-standing community organization honoring King's memory in the country, with annual demonstrations on King's birthday going back to 1983. The Committee meets from October through January, and usually draws from 20-30 activists per meeting. It is overwhelmingly but by no means exclusively Black, and seeks to be diverse by inclination and policy. The rally speakers' list and workshop membership are always racially diverse, for instance. Anyway, the Committee re-convened early in October to begin discussions for the 2009 event. At the first meeting I initiated a short informal discussion before the meeting about Obama's chances. I said I thought he was going to win, for sure, but many around the table including some very senior Black activists demurred, saying basically they feared the Bradley effect while one guy said simply, "I don't trust white America." Well, who could blame him? I don't trust white America myself. But, as Joaquin has pointed out, Obama does not need a majority of white Americans to vote for him in order to win. In any case, as the discussion continued for a short while, people began to talk about what would happen if Obama did win. The discussion was all in the mode of, "If we win,..." then a conjecture. What was important to me was that the "we" referred NOT the Democratic Party, but to Black people overall. This strand has been discussed theoretically on the list by Fred, Joaquin and others, talking about Trotsky's phrase of voting for the Black person, not the Democrat. I'm just reporting on the factual level that that sentiment is very alive with the Black activists in the MLK Celebration Committee in Seattle. I asked my closest collaborator among these folks, a youngish Black woman whom I've worked extensively with on peace movement and Black issues, and who was (before Obama's candidacy) very drawn to the McKinney campaign (as was I), how she was feeling about the election, and her answer was "scared". I don't know what about, whether about potential violence, about getting her hopes let down, or what. I let it go. Interestingly, other than the decision to move our traditional meeting from Tuesday to Wednesday so as not to conflict with election night activities, there was actually no discussion about Obama at the next meeting, even informally. I got the feeling that everyone in the room was holding their breath, wanting to feel good about the election but fearful of yet another shattering disappointment, and maybe a little jittery about jinxing the whole thing by celebrating in anticipation. In any case, I'm voting for Obama because I want to be with these folks all the way on election night. It's too bad that Cynthia's campaign happened to run up against Obama's candidacy, because she is a very cool person, a serious radical politician and someone well worth working your ass off for under other circumstances, but I have stopped doing political work out of dutifulness. Tough for Cynthia, she deserves better, but that's no reason I have to bang my head against the wall this year. From ssschwartz8@gmail.com Sat Nov 01 13:45:06 2008 Received: from mu-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.134.188]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwMPC-0000wv-9i for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:45:06 -0600 Received: by mu-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id w1so1800930mue.9 for ; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 12:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.103.217.7 with SMTP id u7mr6247839muq.111.1225568704221; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 12:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.103.213.2 with HTTP; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 12:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <685ad9b30811011245u33df748l249f9233579d26dd@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 21:45:04 +0200 From: "yossi schwartz" To: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Subject: [Marxism] Last minute stab by rightist Dobson against Obama X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 19:45:06 -0000 "You are not arguing with people on Daily Kos or the Nation Magazine. People subscribe to the Marxism list because they are for a revolutionary party and socialist revolution. The debates occur over how to achieve those goals" No Louis People who fight to overthrow this system do not support imperialist parties during elections. No amounts of words can change this simple ABC of Marxism. Those who support imperialist parties are simple non and Anti Marxists. As a matter of fact some kind of neo socialists, or Neo Marxists, regardless of how they call themselves. You can not be or a workers revolutions and support the representatives of the exploiters. The North American Indian called some White Liberals spited tongue Others call such a linguistic devise a smoke screen. Of course I appear odd to those who want to support imperialism. In the country I live in, any one who is not a Zionist appears ODD, so I am used to be in this particular position when it comes to those who support the system, and claim that they are seeking new methods that were condemn by the revolutionaries already in the 19th century in France. If you want to convince odd people like me and all those who are not ready to support imperialism you will have to improve come with a better argument than the one I am used to in Israel. From binesi@gvtel.com Sat Nov 01 13:55:10 2008 Received: from mail.gvtel.com ([206.10.30.142]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwMYw-0000xt-0N for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:55:10 -0600 Received: from [64.235.81.234] (unverified [64.235.81.234]) by mail.gvtel.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 7.0.3) with ESMTP id for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 14:55:08 -0500 Message-ID: <490CB417.3040104@gvtel.com> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:55:03 -0500 From: David Thorstad User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Windows/20080914) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marxism Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [Marxism] Moderator's note X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 19:55:10 -0000 Louis asked me to show where Fred Feldman and Walter Lippman had compared me to a Nazi, as I asserted in a post. Here is Fred Feldman's post of October 13, comparing me to Julius Streicher, publisher of /Der Stürmer/. (I apologize for misremembering that his comparison was a reaction to my post about Obama's alleged salacious "sex perv" connections, and not same-sex marriage.) I let it go at the time as a mere snotty excess. But since I'm being smacked for less egregious sins--pointing out the liberal reformism of people like Feldman and Lippmann who see no problem in Marxists voting for Obama--I cite it again. So much for Feldman's comparing me to a Nazi, even if it is a "left" one. As for Lippmann, I could be wrong about my assertion that he too compared me to a Nazi in our personal exchanges (part of which he posted on the list), and since I don't save or copy many exchanges, I am ready to concede that my assertion was inaccurate, since I haven't saved the exchanges we had so can't prove it. That said, Walter did resort to name calling, repeatedly referring to me there and on the list as a "thoroughgoing reactionary." During our exchanges, I went back and read one of his lengthy internal SWP discussion bulletin contributions from 1979 in which he stated--already then--nearly thirty years ago, that I was a "reactionary." At least he's consistent. I suspect both he and Feldman supported Barry Sheppard's wretched "Memorandum" on gay liberation in 1973, which Barry has written in his memoir was written to accommodate prejudice against homosexuals as a result of prodding from Farrell Dobbs (something that was kept secret from the ranks at the time--so much for "proletarian democracy," which in this case resembles Stalinism more than socialist democracy). Kudos to them if they did not, but am I wrong? Another rather bizarre attempt to link me to racism (!) and the right came from Jeff (Oct. 27) in his comments on "Why Gay Marriage Sucks," in which, reacting to my opposition to "hate-crimes" legislation, he stated: "So to summarize, you are AGAINST legislation which is AGAINST racist violence. [huh? This was about Wyoming antigay "hate crimes" legislation, and had nothing to do with racist violence] And that puts you exactly where in the struggle against racism? Yes, WE know that you're a Marxist etc. But are you going to go out canvassing with Klansman [sic] by your side? Knock on doors and explain that the guy in the white robe next to you supports your position "for the worng reason?" To me, this is another oddball argument that goes well beyond my comment that leftist Obama supporters are liberals, not Marxists. Addressing the arguments of those one does not see eye to eye with, rather than labeling them with loaded terms that turn them into the Other, would seem advisable. The tendency of some (Feldman, Lippmann...) to resort to self-serving labeling instead reminds me of some of the internal SWP discussions I witnessed, in which comrades eager to get in good with the leadership resorted to the same kind of demonizing. And look where that outfit they defended at the time ended up. David ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ David Thorstad: I see no reason not to publicize any of this, nor do I feel any need to defend a capitalist politician from such revelations, most especially since I have no information that they are not true. Fred comments: Well if the revolutionary left ever "needs" its own "Der Sturmer," Thorstad is clearly the one to provide it. The times may yet find the man. That's it from me on this political pornography, at least until consequences, if any, start coming in. Fred Feldman From wsredden@gmail.com Sat Nov 01 13:57:02 2008 Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com ([74.125.92.24]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwMak-0000yO-Lk for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:57:02 -0600 Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 9so769513qwb.17 for ; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 12:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.215.38.20 with SMTP id q20mr2372763qaj.124.1225569421687; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 12:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.3? (cpe-72-225-172-232.nyc.res.rr.com [72.225.172.232]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 9sm4423001ywf.2.2008.11.01.12.56.59 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 01 Nov 2008 12:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <490B3DDC.EA8BD166@ilstu.edu> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 15:56:55 -0400 To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition From: Shawn Redden Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Subject: Re: [Marxism] Last minute stab by rightist Dobson against Obama X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 19:57:03 -0000 Careful, Comrade Lause. Implying that LHO didn't do the deed leads one down a slippery slope of conspiracy theorism. Pretty soon the folks on Alternet, Common Dreams, and Marxmail will be attacking you for believing in aliens and Area 51 as they do now with Hugo Chavez, Fidel Casto, and the former head of Russia's general staff. It's much better to keep inveighing against McKinney (whose campaign resembles Nader's 96 effort) since the vastly superior Nader campaign may perhaps get 2% of the vote. Shawn At 3:47 PM -0400 10/31/08, Mark Lause wrote: >Zangara is also described, less credibly perhaps, as a "patsy" a la >Lee Harvey Oswald. > >ML From shmage@pipeline.com Sat Nov 01 13:57:27 2008 Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.67]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwMb9-0000yd-Je for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:57:27 -0600 Received: from [64.131.189.29] (helo=user-1087f8t.cable.mindspring.com) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwMb3-00034K-7Z for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 15:57:21 -0400 Message-Id: <8DABE75B-E2E6-4E15-AF53-6277C5333478@pipeline.com> From: Shane Mage To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) X-Priority: 3 Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 15:58:24 -0400 References: <7b8a676d0810301704m2f18bbd4sfe409a620e0b1125@mail.gmail.com> <2B670CAABD3642848B65FAA1AC038D20@dmsthinkpad> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.929.2) X-ELNK-Trace: 5de0b0a17a461b84cd4e711cd2c36696a4d799ad7606091370214c4765ff1598cf1b43201b9db4e2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.131.189.29 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Subject: Re: [Marxism] The ruling class in the United States of America istheentire capitalist class! X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 19:57:28 -0000 On Nov 1, 2008, at 1:10 PM, S. Artesian wrote: > > "The Other Reason for Warren Buffett's Success" > "...As recently as 1995, 73.5% of Berkshire's total assets consisted > of a > portfolio of publicly traded stocks.... As of June 30 [2008] though, > Berkshire's stockholdings made up just 25% of its assets... > ...Since the beginning of 2006, Berkshire has spent nearly $17 > billion buying > private companies lock, stock, and barrel... > > >Like I said, securities are not long term investments, but only > trading > >vehicles, unless of course you are selling the securities, then > flogging the > >"long term" is a time-proven method of separating fools from their > money. This totally misunderstands Buffet, what he does, and why he succeeds. Buffet has from day one stated his method of securities analysis as to value equity investments on the basis of their pro rata share of what he would be willing to pay for the *whole company*. Since 1995, recognizing the gross overvaluation of most of the stock market, and recognizing that buying enough common shares to be meaningful for BK would inflate their price even more unreasonably, he has accumulated cash and used it to make *long term investments* when whole companies can be bought at a reasonable price (and now to place funds at juicy terms when corporations debilitated by their short-term speculations have to come to him for funds). '"Securities" includes the stock of privately as well as publicly held corporations. A corporation's common stock does not cease to be a "security" even if BK owns 100% of it and even if it consolidates results on its overall tax return. Shane Mage > This cosmos did none of gods or men make, but it > always was and is and shall be: an everlasting fire, > kindling in measures and going out in measures." > > Herakleitos of Ephesos From lnp3@panix.com Sat Nov 01 14:04:02 2008 Received: from mail2.panix.com ([166.84.1.73]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwMhV-0000yz-VE for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:04:02 -0600 Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB83A34802 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 16:04:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from louis.panix.com (cpe-66-108-163-221.nyc.res.rr.com [66.108.163.221]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA945D83D for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 16:04:00 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 16:03:57 -0400 To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition From: Louis Proyect In-Reply-To: <685ad9b30811011245u33df748l249f9233579d26dd@mail.gmail.com > References: <685ad9b30811011245u33df748l249f9233579d26dd@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Message-Id: <20081101200400.BA945D83D@mailbackend.panix.com> Subject: Re: [Marxism] Last minute stab by rightist Dobson against Obama X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 20:04:02 -0000 >No Louis > >People who fight to overthrow this system do not support imperialist parties >during elections. But, Yossi, there are major differences among us about what parties are "kosher". You think that both Nader and Obama are pork, but I do not. From sartesian@earthlink.net Sat Nov 01 14:04:23 2008 Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.69]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwMhr-0000zb-EI for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:04:23 -0600 Received: from [69.86.1.8] (helo=dmsthinkpad) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwMhl-0001S7-2W for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 16:04:17 -0400 Message-ID: <6EBF4B41AE6A4D858C2175F7BDFABD73@dmsthinkpad> From: "S. Artesian" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" References: <7b8a676d0810311957y4fa43ce1gf1cc6a3a97f3b6e1@mail.gmail.com><641718A6991741F6BABE4CE6FEC1FF6A@dmsthinkpad><61A18694-E1CD-42FA-A816-9825DAE9408C@pobox.com> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 16:04:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-ELNK-Trace: cb12c76ec1f5bb3a85338a7d01cb3b6a7e972de0d01da940c66d276ccda610c6865e2e5a356f54cc350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.86.1.8 Subject: Re: [Marxism] If you want to identify the ruling class, you have to decide what is a social class. X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 20:04:23 -0000 What? Corporations are not golems, molochs, Frankeinsteins, or ghosts in a machine. They are purposeful organizations created, owned, run, directed by human beings to make money. If you don't think those who run corporations, chairmen and ceos of businesses like Exxon, Halliburton, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan Chase actually meet and discuss what they want the government to do and when, you are not keeping up on the news. They, these personified corporate types, are the corporate rules. They don't always agree on every detail, but the great thing about being in the ruling class is-- you don't have to agree to get what you want, or at least what you need. ----- Original Message ----- From: "martin" To: Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] If you want to identify the ruling class, you have to decide what is a social class. From sartesian@earthlink.net Sat Nov 01 14:11:58 2008 Received: from elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.63]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwMpC-00010l-CV for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:11:58 -0600 Received: from [69.86.1.8] (helo=dmsthinkpad) by elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwMpA-0007ha-I1 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 15:11:56 -0500 Message-ID: From: "S. Artesian" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" References: <490C8717.2090106@comcast.net><20081101165057.AC0091BB7@mailbackend.panix.com> <490CA382.20001@optonline.net> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 16:11:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-ELNK-Trace: cb12c76ec1f5bb3a85338a7d01cb3b6a7e972de0d01da940a5e8b71ef827765e2d1a860436cc399c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.86.1.8 Subject: Re: [Marxism] Clint Eastwood's "The Changeling" X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 20:11:58 -0000 I was referring, in the main, to culture-- culturally derivative. However, yes Hollywood did go to investment banks to finance some works and did establish positions in derivatives, and hedges-- include credit default swaps to protect themselves in case the movie came a cropper and they couldn't refinance. Don't know how extensive it was. One thing I don't think they were able to establish in the realm of publicly traded securities was the film version of a collateralized debt obligation-- where the debt is secured by a revenue stream from either movie box office receipts, video royalties, sales to cable etc. Maybe Joaquin has so info on that. But I bet that it gets done the next time around-- probably using the rights to the studio film library as collateral. Tell you what, we could probably get them to collateralize the revolution and issue notes during the next bubble. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Les Schaffer" To: Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 2:44 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] Clint Eastwood's "The Changeling" From lnp3@panix.com Sat Nov 01 14:14:45 2008 Received: from mail2.panix.com ([166.84.1.73]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwMrt-000115-S5 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:14:45 -0600 Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CE3D3480C for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 16:14:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from louis.panix.com (cpe-66-108-163-221.nyc.res.rr.com [66.108.163.221]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75147DC33 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 16:14:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 16:14:41 -0400 To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition From: Louis Proyect In-Reply-To: <490CB417.3040104@gvtel.com> References: <490CB417.3040104@gvtel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Message-Id: <20081101201445.75147DC33@mailbackend.panix.com> Subject: Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 20:14:46 -0000 Fred Feldman wrote: >Well if the revolutionary left ever "needs" its own "Der Sturmer," >Thorstad is clearly the one to provide it. This escaped my attention. If I ever see anything like this again from anybody, they will get the boot. From ok.president@gmail.com Sat Nov 01 14:15:28 2008 Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com ([209.85.198.235]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwMsa-00011M-HA for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:15:28 -0600 Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id f6so1885937rvb.59 for ; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:15:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.143.14 with SMTP id q14mr6183110wfd.304.1225570527903; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:15:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.229.19 with HTTP; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 13:15:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <908b689f0811011315v1b887de2t943f5147f366b55d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 16:15:27 -0400 From: "Ruthless Critic of All that Exists" Sender: ok.president@gmail.com To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: 3288d23b006ec834 Subject: Re: [Marxism] 188 million registered to vote -- 80 percent of eligible total -- up 32 percent from 2004 X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 20:15:28 -0000 On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 7:56 AM, Fred Feldman wrote: > Voter registration smashes records > States say 188 million have signed up to vote (November 1, 2004) Fox News Poll: Kerry 48%, Bush 45% (Registered Voters) Full: From sartesian@earthlink.net Sat Nov 01 14:16:34 2008 Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.70]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwMte-00011a-7l for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:16:34 -0600 Received: from [69.86.1.8] (helo=dmsthinkpad) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwMtY-0001oO-0U for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 16:16:28 -0400 Message-ID: From: "S. Artesian" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" References: <7b8a676d0810301704m2f18bbd4sfe409a620e0b1125@mail.gmail.com><2B670CAABD3642848B65FAA1AC038D20@dmsthinkpad> <490CA566.3020205@optonline.net> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 16:16:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-ELNK-Trace: cb12c76ec1f5bb3a85338a7d01cb3b6a7e972de0d01da940782b44f361586d9a6316bda227110f75350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.86.1.8 Subject: Re: [Marxism] The ruling class in the United States ofAmerica istheentire capitalist class! X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 20:16:34 -0000 Les, Entire "discipline" using algorithms to predict market movement, to detect anomalies in markets and establish arbitrage positions, to establish positions long and short, and hedge same. The practitioners of this, many of whom have backgrounds in mathematics, including not a few Ph.Ds are called "quants." Actually at the beginning of this crisis way back when Bear Stearns closed 2 hedge funds, WSJ and FT were filled with articles about how the "quants" got it wrong. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Les Schaffer" To: Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 2:52 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] The ruling class in the United States ofAmerica istheentire capitalist class! From sartesian@earthlink.net Sat Nov 01 14:28:24 2008 Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.70]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwN56-00013Y-JA for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:28:24 -0600 Received: from [69.86.1.8] (helo=dmsthinkpad) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwN50-0002dh-Rv for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 16:28:19 -0400 Message-ID: <85A2C17F082E4D4C9A16E5280116F672@dmsthinkpad> From: "S. Artesian" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" References: <7b8a676d0810301704m2f18bbd4sfe409a620e0b1125@mail.gmail.com><2B670CAABD3642848B65FAA1AC038D20@dmsthinkpad> <8DABE75B-E2E6-4E15-AF53-6277C5333478@pipeline.com> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 16:28:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-ELNK-Trace: cb12c76ec1f5bb3a85338a7d01cb3b6a7e972de0d01da9406565960ef5ea653d56982b2e17eae212350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.86.1.8 Subject: Re: [Marxism] The ruling class in the United States of Americaistheentire capitalist class! X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 20:28:25 -0000 No, Shane, you totally misunderstand the WSJ article, Buffet, and for better or worse, securities market. This baloney about "value investing" for the long term, touted by its number one baloneyist, Benjamin Graham, is great if you buy, not the securities in the secondary markets, but the company itself in the negotiated market-- with a "private" price. This is what Buffett does with lesser success, according to the WSJ, when he bought Salomon Bros. US Air, and Champion International. He tries to follow the same position when buying securities, negotiating rights and warrants and prices that already discount downside, guaranteeing his position "primacy" in amounts and types of dividend payments; terms that are not available to the general public. That's what value investing is all about. And that's why, at the end of the market day, the "gap" between value investing, and the purchase of "distressed securities," and the gap between heroes like Buffett and villains like Trump, disappears. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shane Mage" To: Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 3:58 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] The ruling class in the United States of Americaistheentire capitalist class! From russo.matthew9@gmail.com Sat Nov 01 14:32:28 2008 Received: from mail-gx0-f19.google.com ([209.85.217.19]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwN92-00013p-Ka for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:32:28 -0600 Received: by gxk12 with SMTP id 12so234360gxk.23 for ; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:32:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.108.5 with SMTP id k5mr8371117ybm.209.1225571542643; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:32:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.150.15 with HTTP; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 13:32:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1b7033e60811011332r35764cdaia68c819db7d0f0d5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 13:32:22 -0700 From: "Matthew Russo" To: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Subject: [Marxism] Forward, comrades, to "socialism" X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 20:32:29 -0000 The New Yorker, reporting from Fake America East on Sarah Palin, the Rednec= k Welfare Queen: For her part, Sarah Palin, who has lately taken to calling Obama "Barack th= e Wealth Spreader," seems to be something of a suspect character herself. She is, at the very least, a fellow-traveller of what might be called socialism with an Alaskan face. The state that she governs has no income or sales tax= . I*nstead, it imposes huge levies on the oil companies* that lease its oil fields[what, they don't OWN the fields?!?]. The proceeds finance the government's activities and *enable it to issue a four-figure annual check to every man, woman, and child in the state*. [Multiple checks per family!!= ] One of the reasons Palin has been a popular governor is that *she added an extra twelve hundred dollars to this year's check*, bringing the per-person total to $3,269. A few weeks before she was nominated for Vice-President, she told a visiting journalist=97Philip Gourevitch, of this magazine=97that "we're set up, unlike other states in the union, where it's *collectively Alaskans own the resources*. So we *share in the wealth* when the development of these resources occurs." Perhaps there is some meaningful distinction between spreading the wealth and sharing it ("collectively," no less), but finding it would require the analytic skills of Karl the Marxist= . :-D :-D :-D Alaska seems like a genuine "worker's paradise", and Palin sounds more "redistributive" than Obama the pinko-commie! http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2008/11/03/081103taco_talk_hertzberg I can't recall a time before in my life where all the favorite terms have gathered so thickly in the public ether as they have now. Forward, comrades, to "socialism" :-D :-D :-D Now who was that who said that about history appearing second time as a farce? -Matt, from Fake America West From shmage@pipeline.com Sat Nov 01 14:37:38 2008 Received: from elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.63]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwNE2-00014k-0h for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:37:38 -0600 Received: from [64.131.189.29] (helo=user-1087f8t.cable.mindspring.com) by elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwNE1-0004c9-DJ for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 15:37:37 -0500 Message-Id: From: Shane Mage To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition In-Reply-To: <908b689f0811011315v1b887de2t943f5147f366b55d@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 16:38:40 -0400 References: <908b689f0811011315v1b887de2t943f5147f366b55d@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.929.2) X-ELNK-Trace: 5de0b0a17a461b84cd4e711cd2c36696a4d799ad76060913cabf59595a129c029138f4ead25e7685350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.131.189.29 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Subject: Re: [Marxism] 188 million registered to vote -- 80 percent of eligible total -- up 32 percent from 2004 X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 20:37:38 -0000 On Nov 1, 2008, at 4:15 PM, Ruthless Critic of All that Exists wrote: > On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 7:56 AM, Fred Feldman > wrote: >> Voter registration smashes records >> States say 188 million have signed up to vote > (November 1, 2004) Fox News Poll: > Kerry 48%, Bush 45% (Registered Voters) That poll is probably very very close to the actual vote (before the Repugnicon theft machine went into full operation). Shane Mage > This cosmos did none of gods or men make, but it > always was and is and shall be: an everlasting fire, > kindling in measures and going out in measures." > > Herakleitos of Ephesos From schaffer@optonline.net Sat Nov 01 14:48:00 2008 Received: from mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net ([167.206.4.198]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwNO4-00015N-9R for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:48:00 -0600 Received: from BNW113-C0186M.local (ool-4579cfab.dyn.optonline.net [69.121.207.171]) by mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0K9O0020J9QD9H11@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 16:47:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 16:46:58 -0400 From: Les Schaffer In-reply-to: To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition Message-id: <490CC042.7030603@optonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE References: <7b8a676d0810301704m2f18bbd4sfe409a620e0b1125@mail.gmail.com> <2B670CAABD3642848B65FAA1AC038D20@dmsthinkpad> <490CA566.3020205@optonline.net> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Macintosh/20080914) Subject: Re: [Marxism] The ruling class in the United States ofAmerica istheentire capitalist class! X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 20:48:00 -0000 S. Artesian wrote: > Entire "discipline" using algorithms to predict market movement, to= detect=20 > anomalies in markets and establish arbitrage positions, to establis= h=20 > positions long and short, and hedge same. The practitioners of thi= s, many=20 > of whom have backgrounds in mathematics, including not a few Ph.Ds = are=20 > called "quants." > > Actually at the beginning of this crisis way back when Bear Stearns= closed 2=20 > hedge funds, WSJ and FT were filled with articles about how the "qu= ants" got=20 > it wrong. yea, i know, seen some good physics and math students head that way.= =20 i've been following the field from a distance for a few years, includ= ing=20 one guy who thinks techniques from quantum field theory (QFT) is a go= od=20 basis for predicting stock market volatility. the Border's comment: j= ust=20 found it interesting a. there was a larger selection of technical boo= ks=20 in the econ and hedge section than in the physics and chemistry secti= on=20 and b. econ has their heroes just like physics and math have theirs. = for=20 the most part, i find the Einstein books a bore. re/ quants: someone asked me a few years ago if i wanted to apply the= =20 QFT stuff to derivatives, because there were companies looking for ne= w=20 algorithms to price options. i had a few meetings to see what all the= =20 fuss was about, but dropped it out of sheer boredom and bewilderment= =20 that it was anything other than dice rolling (pacem Albert). maybe if= i=20 had stuck with it, marxmail would have its own super duper server, an= d i=20 could be lying on the beach, earning 20% (line from Alan Rickman, in = Die=20 Hard). or better yet, i could have bought my own locomotive engine ..= . speaking of capitalist class, i think this article will cause Lenin t= o=20 resurrect next April: Despite Crisis, Wealthy Russians Are Buying Up Coastal Montenegro By DAN BILEFSKY Published: October 31, 2008 BUDVA, Montenegro =97 The global financial crisis has buffeted th= e balance sheets of Russia=92s legion of billionaires. But suitcase= s of cash and Russian-owned luxury yachts keep arriving in this idylli= c town on the Adriatic, helping Montenegro earn the nickname Moscow-on-the-Sea. Thanks largely to Russia, Montenegro receives more foreign investment per capita than any other country on the Continent. Russians are building a $310 million hotel and condominium comple= x on a rocky peninsula at Budva. Among the biggest investors is the Russian developer Vyentseslav Leibman, a young millionaire who is pressing ahead with investmen= ts of $310 million, including plans for a 27-floor modernist hotel, luxury seaside villas, docks for the pleasure boats of the Russia= n superrich and a water park for their children. The investment might seem daring given the way the economic downt= urn has hit several of his fellow wealthy Russians. But Mr. Leibman, = a Muscovite who is managing partner at Mirax Group, the company own= ed by the Russian billionaire developer Sergei Polonsky, insists he = can barely keep up with demand. He said more than half of the sprawling condominiums in Mirax= =92s new complex =97 which sell for more than $10,400 per square foot and = come with outdoor marble Jacuzzis =97 had been sold to executives of g= iant Russian companies like Gazprom, Lukoil and VTB. They paid, he sai= d, upfront and in cash. Despite the financial crisis, =93the money keeps coming,=94 said = Mr. Leibman, who recently helped bring Madonna to perform in Budva to promote his development. =93And hopefully the global financial cr= isis will help sober up the cost of land here, which is now more expensive than in Monaco.=94 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/01/world/europe/01balkans.html Les From cbcox@ilstu.edu Sat Nov 01 15:22:18 2008 Received: from smtp2.ilstu.edu ([138.87.124.35] helo=smtp.ilstu.edu) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwNvG-000192-J7 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 15:22:18 -0600 Received: from ilstu.edu (unknown [10.102.5.124]) by smtp.ilstu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1EAB6C50 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 16:22:12 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <490CC887.E8278598@ilstu.edu> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 16:22:15 -0500 From: Carrol Cox X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition References: <166949.89618.qm@web88007.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <490CAEE7.2C0C201A@ilstu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [Marxism] Marx's Questionnaire, was Re: Why Gay Marriage X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 21:22:18 -0000 I came across the volume by accident. S.Artesian is correct. MECW 24, p. 328. My memory (as usual) was fairly fucked up but had some fragments correct. It was shorter than I remember Ollman saying, but still quite long: 4 sections totalling 99 questions, one of which has 6 sub-questions. The questions are all "thought" questions through which the worker analyzes his/her own conditions and places them in some sort of context. I have only browsed through it so far, but it looks potentially powerful as a propaganda device in small grouo discussion. Incidentally, and I'm going to be vague on this too. I remember reading a brief report on an SDS (J.O.I.N.) project, I think in Baltimore, which utilized some form of questionnaire in door-to-door canvassing and had some success with it. This sort of thing should be kept in mind for when a new movement with some coherence begins in the u.s. for various forms of organizing -- but particularly, I think, for door-to-door work. I'm only a pessimist in the short run (which since I'm 78 is sort of the long run for me personally). Ollman does point out in one book that real periods of change ALWAYS catcvh everyone by surprise and are NEVER predicted ahead of time. Carrol Carrol Cox wrote: >=20 > Pance Stojkovski wrote: > > > > >> Carrol Cox wrote > > >> in fact Marx himself prepared a questionnaire of (if I > > >> remember correctly) some 200 questions which was designed to > > >> transform the person answering the questions. > > > > > David Pic=F3n =C1lvarez wrote: > > > Is this somewhere in the MIA? I'd be quite curious to > > > read it. > > > > > > > I'm curious too. I searched MIA and found this in Volume 24: > > http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/cw/volume24/index.htm > > > > but the relevant chapter has not been transcribed yet: > > Workers' Questionnaire (Marx) - page 328. > > > > Is that it? >=20 > I don't know. What is the date? My fucking eyes are so bad I can't even > read the volume #s clearly on the MECW, and I've apparently misplaced > Vol. 24. As I remember Ollman's presentation, it was written during the > last year or two of Marx's life. Jan is away for the weekend. When she > returns I'll ask her to look through the volumes for it. >=20 > Carrol >=20 > > > > pance. > > > > ________________________________________________ > > YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu > > Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxi= sm/cbcox%40ilstu.edu >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------= --- > ________________________________________________ > YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu > Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism= /cbcox%40ilstu.edu From markalause@gmail.com Sat Nov 01 15:31:23 2008 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.173]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwO42-00019P-W3 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 15:31:23 -0600 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id e2so1630424ugf.29 for ; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:31:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.210.51.10 with SMTP id y10mr6827947eby.98.1225575080483; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 14:31:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.210.86.18 with HTTP; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 14:31:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 17:31:20 -0400 From: "Mark Lause" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <490B3DDC.EA8BD166@ilstu.edu> Subject: Re: [Marxism] Last minute stab by rightist Dobson against Obama X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 21:31:23 -0000 Shawn Redden wrote: > Careful, Comrade Lause. Implying that LHO didn't do the deed leads > one down a slippery slope of conspiracy theorism. > What I wrote was that the killer of Mayor Cermak, "Zangara is also described, less credibly perhaps, as a 'patsy' a la Lee Harvey Oswald." I did not imply that Oswald was a patsy. As an aside, at the time they were busily selling the financial bailout, CNN interviewed one of the "experts." He was himself involved with blowing the bubble that had bursts as a financier, a government functionary and a political advisor. Told that many people suspected collusion between capital, government and politicians, this fellow dismissively brushed it all off as a "conspiracy theory." This jerk who, himself, embodied that kind of collusion and identified himself as such, denied the hint of collusion as a "conspiracy theorism." How stupid are we? On second thought, let's not even bother answering the question... : - ) ML From ppz@optusnet.com.au Sat Nov 01 16:11:13 2008 Received: from mail04.syd.optusnet.com.au ([211.29.132.185]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwOgb-0001CR-6q for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 16:11:13 -0600 Received: from [211.30.126.249] (c211-30-126-249.rivrw2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [211.30.126.249]) (authenticated sender ppz) by mail04.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id mA1MB5jq012407 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 09:11:06 +1100 From: PPZ To: Marxism List Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Pip, Peter & Zoe Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 09:11:04 +1100 Message-Id: <1225577464.5719.21.camel@ppz-desktop> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.22.3.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Marxism] Slideshow of Karachi rally against US imperialist bombing of Pakistan X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 22:11:13 -0000 http://www.asia-pacific-action.org/node/208 From ok.president@gmail.com Sat Nov 01 17:38:07 2008 Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com ([209.85.200.174]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwQ2h-0001I9-1u for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 17:38:07 -0600 Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 27so2032778wfd.17 for ; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 16:38:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.230.11 with SMTP id c11mr6284420wfh.334.1225582686526; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 16:38:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.229.19 with HTTP; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 16:38:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <908b689f0811011638s5bdd04c6r4fd86ca007f3773b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 19:38:06 -0400 From: "Ruthless Critic of All that Exists" Sender: ok.president@gmail.com To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" In-Reply-To: <490CAF64.6030504@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <490CAF64.6030504@comcast.net> X-Google-Sender-Auth: b153e2cd8ef80945 Subject: Re: [Marxism] Last-minute stab by rightist Dobson against Obama X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 23:38:07 -0000 On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 3:35 PM, David McDonald wrote: > In any case, I'm voting for Obama because I want to be with these folks > all the way on election night. It's too bad that Cynthia's campaign > happened to run up against Obama's candidacy, because she is a very cool > person, a serious radical politician and someone well worth working your > ass off for under other circumstances, but I have stopped doing > political work out of dutifulness. Tough for Cynthia, she deserves > better, but that's no reason I have to bang my head against the wall > this year. Why can't you vote for McKinney *and* celebrate with these friends of yours? I see no contradiction in doing so. From ffeldman@bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 01 17:38:27 2008 Received: from vms173007pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.7]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwQ30-0001IN-W6 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 17:38:27 -0600 Received: from office1pc ([138.89.80.188]) by vms173007.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0K9O00GA3HMFNXRA@vms173007.mailsrvcs.net> for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 18:37:29 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 19:38:33 -0400 From: "Fred Feldman" To: Message-id: <480542750076489E917AABF102B70F36@office1pc> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thread-index: Ack8evPDqfX3XUBnT0uBbDmKmcSeGw== Subject: [Marxism] Few benefits for US yet from dollar rise, but dollar-borrowing countries squeezed X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 23:38:27 -0000 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/07/AR2008100702 439.html Few Seeing Usual Benefits of Rising Dollar Normally, Americans Would Travel More and Imports Would Jump, but Caution Rules the Day By Mary Jordan and Karla Adam Washington Post Foreign Service Saturday, November 1, 2008; A09 LONDON -- The value of the U.S. dollar has soared with unheard-of speed against many currencies in recent weeks, but the global financial crisis has altered the usual effects of such a spike. Normally a rising dollar means more Americans traveling abroad and foreign countries exporting more goods and services to the United States. But this time, even though the dollar has gained about 25 percent against the euro and the British pound since early August, few analysts said they expect to see that happening anytime soon. As Americans face recession and rising joblessness, fewer are tempted to take overseas vacations or buy more imported goods. "In an ideal world, the soaring dollar sounds wonderful" for British exports, "but quite frankly no one is buying anything from anyone," said Howard Wheeldon, senior strategist at BGC Partners in London. At the same time, the speed of the climb has brought debt problems almost overnight to many struggling countries. Foreign governments and individuals who borrowed in dollars are finding that the corresponding rapid decline of their currencies against the dollar has made it harder, and in some cases impossible, to buy enough dollars to keep up loan payments. The International Monetary fund's emergency talks, including those with Iceland, Hungary and Ukraine, have largely involved nations whose banks are facing huge amounts of unpaid debts that are driven in part by the mismatch of local currency income and foreign currency debt. Also, the euro has risen against Eastern European currencies. In Ukraine, where the hryvna has fallen to its lowest value since coming into use in 1996, so many people have rushed to convert their savings into dollars that many exchange offices ran out. About $3 billion worth of local currency has been turned into dollars and euros, according to Sergiy Kruglyk, a spokesman for the National Bank of Ukraine. The dollar has strengthened significantly against the Indian rupee, the Polish zloty -- nearly every currency except the Japanese yen. While it may not make U.S. consumers rush out and buy cheaper imports, analysts said it may make U.S. exports even harder to sell, because the strong dollar tends to make them more expensive to foreigners. Also, tourists may be less tempted to visit the United States -- already there are signs that Canadians who frequently shopped in U.S. border cities are staying home because goods are suddenly far pricier for them. Like gyrations in world stock markets, the speed and unpredictability of currency fluctuations have caught many by surprise. "We have really not seen volatility of this magnitude -- it's jaw-dropping," said George Davis, chief foreign exchange analyst for RBC Capital Markets in Toronto. Analysts attribute the rise of the dollar to a combination of factors, including that investors in hard-hit emerging markets are increasingly selling local shares and retreating into dollars, which are still widely seen as safer than most currencies. Alex Dunn, senior account manager at Caxton FX, a foreign exchange firm that has seen a 400 percent surge in transactions, attributed the rush to the dollar to the idea that while "America led us into the global recession, they will lead us out." Wheeldon offered a similar view. "When people think, 'Where should I put my money?' and they see things like Iceland's currency falling off the cliff, they say, 'Well, you have to put your money somewhere, why not the U.S. dollar?' " In India, another country seeing its currency's value dwindle against the greenback, Rajesh Jain, vice president of Indian brokerage firm SMC Global Securities, said that the new rates are throwing out textbook concepts that the health of a currency generally reflects the health of its economy. "Today's stronger dollar runs counter to all the widely held economic theories. There is so much volatility, everything is in a state of flux. What we are seeing is not related to reality." Thomas Huene, economist for the Federation of German Industries, said that even though the euro falling against the dollar should bring good news for German cars and other exports, that may not happen. With the U.S. economy contracting, he said, "the new exchange rate may prove to be just one drop in the ocean." China's yuan is pegged to the dollar, so Chinese companies are protected against rapid currency swings in their dealings with the huge U.S. market. Though the dollar's appreciation can undermine their goods' competitiveness in non-dollar markets, it helps them import supplies from such places for manufacturing. In sum, most exporters, settling their contracts in the U.S. currency, have welcomed the dollar's rise. But some are not counting on the dollar's bounce to last long and are trying to get their clients to shift their payments over to other currencies. "The rise of the exchange rate is temporary, like a momentary recovery of consciousness just before death," said He Fan, an international finance researcher at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences. In Argentina, the peso's fall is contributing to fears of another national debt default; when Comercial Mexicana, a retailing company that operates the Costco chain in Mexico, filed for bankruptcy protection last month, it cited $2 billion in losses related to the fall of the Mexican peso. Simon Bradley, an executive vice president of Visit Britain who is based in New York, said, the pound's drop against the dollar "has been so sudden, consumers are waiting to see if this is real." If the pound stays at around $1.60 to dollar, rather than the long-time range of over $2, he said, the national tourist agency will incorporate the favorable exchange rate into its January advertising campaign to try to lure Americans to Britain. Many Americans living abroad, including Carl Wheeling, 68, who spent 30 years in the U.S. Navy, are already enjoying the sudden heft of the dollar. His pension check arrives in dollars in Soham, a town north of Cambridge, England, and it's now "kind of a relief" to cash it into pounds. "It's significant, no doubt about it." When the pound peaked against the dollar in November 2007, it took $2.11 of his pension money to buy a single pound. Thursday it required just $1.63. In Paris, analysts said the rise of the dollar is so far too recent and tenuous to have a substantial effect on tourism and exports. But they agreed that whatever stimulation the rate change might provide has thus far been eclipsed by the financial crisis and its effect on consumer psychology. Philippe Marion, marketing director for the Barton and Guestier wine-exporting firm in the Bordeaux region, said that most wine export contracts are drawn up with an exchange rate fixed over an agreed time, such as three months or a year. As a result, the recent shift in the euro-dollar rate has not taken hold in wine sales. In any case, Marion explained, the overriding factor for Bordeaux-region wine exporters is that economic worries in the United States have for the past several months already cut deeply into high-end exports. Paul Roll, general director of the Paris Tourism and Convention Office, said tourism has not yet seen an impact. "The real question is for the year 2009," he said. For the time being, however, tourists seem few and far between. A double-decker tourist bus pulling into Place Saint Michel on the Left Bank on Tuesday, for instance, had only four passengers. But those American tourists who did show up expressed satisfaction at seeing their dollars go a little further to underwrite the traditionally high prices of Paris. "It's wonderful," said a New Jersey woman at the entrance to the Sainte Chapelle, the tiny 13th-century church famous for its stained glass windows. Correspondents Edward Cody in Paris, Ariana Eunjung Cha in Shanghai and Rama Lakshmi in New Delhi and special correspondent Shannon Smiley in Berlin contributed to this report From jonathan.flanders@verizon.net Sat Nov 01 19:43:53 2008 Received: from vms173001pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.1]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwS0P-0001Qd-Aa for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 19:43:53 -0600 Received: from [192.168.0.2] ([70.18.101.236]) by vms173001.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0K9O00A0SNGYT30E@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 20:43:47 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 21:43:45 -0400 From: Jon Flanders To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition Message-id: <1225590225.5933.20.camel@localhost> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.0-2mdv2008.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Subject: [Marxism] We Matter. You Don't! X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 01:43:53 -0000 Or Why Who the F... Cares Who You Vote for if you don't live in Ohio. US elections are in the final analysis a rigged game in a farcical circus. The whole country holds its breath waiting on the collective wisdom of a few rust bucket hamlets in rural Ohio. I rather hope Obama wins the popular vote while McCain ekes out an electoral college win. That would really make things interesting! In the absence of a mass workers party, we probably might just as well throw darts at the ballot to pick a candidate. Here's a question for the list. How long would you wait in line to cast a ballot? Would you stand out there for eight hours like some folks evidently are? Personally I just want this over with so we can figure out what to do next given the lay of whatever land is left. Jon Flanders PERSPECTIVE | BOSTON UNCOMMON We Matter. You Don't! THIS WAS A HISTORIC CAMPAIGN IN SO MANY WAYS. TOO BAD FOR YOU WE HAD ALL THE FUN HERE IN OHIO. By CONNIE SCHULTZ | November 2, 2008 Every four years, Ohio becomes the center of the political universe. Oh sure, there was a lot of chatter about Florida in 2000, but how many times did you hear people complain that Florida wouldn't have mattered if Al Gore hadn't pulled out of, you guessed it, Ohio? All this attention on my home state is flattering, but its fickle nature is a teeny bit insulting. We're a fascinating people all the time, not just in presidential election years. Only in Ohio, for example, can you find a giant Jesus rising out of the ground on Interstate-75 and then drive less than one hour south to visit the birthplace for modern Reform Judaism. That's serious diversity, but that's not what most people think of when they hear "Ohio." Someone says "Ohio" and a lot of folks immediately think "battleground state." Then again, some people hear "Ohio" and think "Iowa." Must be all those vowels. Here we are, though, on the brink of electing a new president and, once again, we're a national obsession. We can't hiccup without someone taking another poll here. Happens during every presidential race, and we're a little hurt that most of the time you just fl y right over us, but we welcome the renewed interest. We've had four years to grow lots of opinions that we're just dying to share with the media. Last month, Ohio was the hand-wringing center of attention in lengthy stories in The New Yorker, The Washington Post, and this newspaper. The state hosted two days of NPR's Talk of the Nation, and our state capital was the choice for CNN's focus group of independent voters who were asked to weigh in on the second presidential debate. The majority of the group said Obama won, but when asked who they would pick if they had to cast their vote that night, a slight majority said McCain. Can't explain it, and I was born here. We're just full of mystery. Ohio is also the butt of a joke in a new episode of The Simpsons. On Election Day, Homer tries desperately to cast his vote in Ohio for Obama, but every time he presses the button the machine tells him he just cast another vote for McCain. Homer, acting like your typical Ohio State football fan, begins wrestling with the machine, which swallows him up and spits him out like a wasted wad of tobacco. That scene would be a lot funnier if I could only forget the bumper sticker I saw on a car in Manhattan shortly after the 2004 election: Have you hit an Ohioan lately? That hurt. Speaking of New Yorkers, there are a lot of them volunteering in Ohio right now, so this is a great time to find a parking space near that Broadway show you've been aching to see. In fact, you can't walk 6 feet without meeting someone from another state who's dropped everything to work on the race here. I've noticed that Boston folks have a habit of canvassing Cleveland neighborhoods in their Red Sox caps. Talk about poking the bear. Most of the time, though, Midwestern manners prevail, if you don't count the nasty exchange outside Obama headquarters in Cleveland's Shaker Square. Only three people saw it, though, and I, for one, will take that memory to my grave. As always, Ohio is one of the top states for the number of political ads. In one recent week alone, the candidates combined spent at a rate of nearly $24,000 every hour on TV ads. Most of them are pretty negative in a state where the unofficial motto is "God don't like ugly." This may explain why so few people are making way for oncoming traffic lately. It's also why you can't stand in line for five minutes at the local pharmacy before total strangers start complaining about the negative ads, quoting them from beginning to end with descriptions of every last graphic. But nobody grouses that this is no place to be talking about politics, because no such place exists in Ohio. We are a battleground state, but we are also called the heartland, which probably explains why my neighbors and I are still speaking. Six households nearby put the same candidate's signs in their yards on the same day. They know there's no way anyone in our house is supporting their guy or their judgment, but they also know we won't let that get in the way of the curbside chats and all-hands-on-deck chases when one of the dogs gets loose. We're neighbors before the election, and we'll be neighbors after it. Life will go on here in Ohio, even if we're the only ones who will notice. Connie Schultz is a Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist for The Plain Dealer in Cleveland. Send comments to magazine@globe.com. From mqduck@sonic.net Sat Nov 01 20:41:07 2008 Received: from b.mail.sonic.net ([64.142.19.5]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwStn-0001Ss-J3 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 20:41:07 -0600 Received: from [192.168.0.101] (76-191-205-240.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [76.191.205.240]) (authenticated bits=0) by b.mail.sonic.net (8.13.8.Beta0-Sonic/8.13.7) with ESMTP id mA22exxC010702 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 19:41:00 -0700 Message-ID: <490C8853.6010400@sonic.net> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 09:48:19 -0700 From: Jeffrey Thomas Piercy User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Windows/20080914) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition References: <1225590225.5933.20.camel@localhost> In-Reply-To: <1225590225.5933.20.camel@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Marxism] We Matter. You Don't! X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 02:41:07 -0000 Jon Flanders wrote: > Here's a question for the list. How long would you wait in line to cast > a ballot? Would you stand out there for eight hours like some folks > evidently are? I think it's somewhat important to"exercise your right" to vote. Not because our democracy isn't bullshit, but because it's a right the ruling class would rather do without. If they ever tried to take it away, we should be its first, strongest defenders. -- Human: An animal so lost in loathing contemplation of what it thinks it is as to overlook what it ought to be. From mqduck@sonic.net Sat Nov 01 21:09:04 2008 Received: from b.mail.sonic.net ([64.142.19.5]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwTKq-0001Tt-1H for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 21:09:04 -0600 Received: from [192.168.0.101] (76-191-205-240.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [76.191.205.240]) (authenticated bits=0) by b.mail.sonic.net (8.13.8.Beta0-Sonic/8.13.7) with ESMTP id mA238wYO018880 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 20:08:58 -0700 Message-ID: <490C8EE1.3080108@sonic.net> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 10:16:17 -0700 From: Jeffrey Thomas Piercy User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Windows/20080914) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition References: <144521.802.qm@web54604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <144521.802.qm@web54604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Marxism] Obama/Biden's statements against same sex marriage used by right X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 03:09:04 -0000 Adam Richmond wrote: > I just received a mailing from the reactionary "Yes on 8" targeting African American voters. It prominently features a photo of Barack Obama with one of his many quotes against gay marriage (I'm not in favor of gay marriage...) with Biden's on the back (Barack Obama nor I support redefining from a civil side what constitutes marriage. We do not support that.) > > Obama has come out against Prop 8, but this position is in contradiction to his overall policies opposing same sex marriage. I'm thinking the reason is not so much to point out Obama's sort-of opposition to gay marriage, as it is to frame the debate in terms of "redefining from a civil side what constitutes marriage" in order to allow gay marriage, whereas this proposition is actually to *redefine* it to not include gay marriage. Or maybe they're just clutching at straws. -- Human: An animal so lost in loathing contemplation of what it thinks it is as to overlook what it ought to be. From jacdon@earthlink.net Sat Nov 01 21:23:13 2008 Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.70]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwTYX-0001VT-81 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 21:23:13 -0600 Received: from [76.15.49.184] (helo=[10.0.1.2]) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwTYQ-0005jC-JA for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 23:23:07 -0400 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.3.6.070618 Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 23:23:05 -0400 From: JacDon To: MARXISM LIST Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Activist Newsletter Thread-Index: Ack8mlGxkDR0wKiNEd2yvgADk6pQ0g== Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-ELNK-Trace: f546118d2e0e33c294f5150ab1c16ac0eafd45f126befae2ed45e2e123485dceb7fbb754517b8339350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 76.15.49.184 Subject: [Marxism] Activist Newsletter X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 03:23:13 -0000 The Nov. 1, 2008 edition of the Activist Newsletter Is available at http://activistnewsletter.blogspot.com =20 1. Editorial: OBAMA THE SOCIALIST! =8B The McCain/Palin red-baiting and ultra-nationalism is a last refuge for these two scoundrels. And Obama is n= o more a socialist than McCain. =20 2. Editorial: OBAMA AND THE ELECTION =8B Most of the progressive and left forces will vote for Obama but they are dreaming if they expect centrism to really address the problems besetting our society and the world. =20 3. Editorial: OUR CHOICE FOR PRESIDENT =8B Obama's obviously better than McCain and we hope he wins, but there are alternatives on the left. =20 4. RECESSION AND CHANGE IN AMERICA =8B This article attempts to tell the whol= e story of the capitalist contretemps from a left perspective, and there's even a semi-hopeful conclusion. =20 5. THE NEWS IN BRIEF =8BMarijuana arrests; Many mammals face extinction; Inequality kills; Mumia's appeal is rejected; Combat force deployed back home for civil strife. =20 6. THE UN BACKS CUBA ONCE AGAIN =8B Imperial hubris gets trounced for the 17t= h time. =20 7. THE COST OF BOOTS ON THE GROUND =8B It takes half a million dollars per year to maintain each U.S. Army sergeant in combat in Iraq =20 8. CHECK IT OUT =8B Three short videos including Jackson Browne's new song about Cuba. =20 =20 From ok.president@gmail.com Sat Nov 01 22:30:05 2008 Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com ([209.85.200.170]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwUbF-0001Xy-NO for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 22:30:05 -0600 Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 27so2110676wfd.17 for ; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 21:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.52.9 with SMTP id z9mr6409616wfz.194.1225600205105; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 21:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.229.19 with HTTP; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 21:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <908b689f0811012130s68a0654cj1623f3fcf3fe99cd@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 00:30:05 -0400 From: "Ruthless Critic of All that Exists" Sender: ok.president@gmail.com To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" In-Reply-To: <908b689f0810012354k35830c4u2d9c820529b81dbc@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <908b689f0810012354k35830c4u2d9c820529b81dbc@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 054d09a4c77ca3ec Subject: Re: [Marxism] Marxist hip hop X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 04:30:06 -0000 On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 2:54 AM, Ruthless Critic of All that Exists wrote: > On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 9:07 AM, Nick Fredman wrote: . >> >> Marxman was a group (of men) rather than a man, around in the early 90s. > > > > I recently came across the film "Cuban Hip Hop", which features many > socialist-leaning Cuban hip hop artistes who support the Cuban > revolution (while at times being sharply critical of Cuban social > reality). > > A review of this film is at: > > On a related note: The review of an autobiographical performance by the Cuban-born rapper Julio Cardenas, who now lives in the Bronx (he moved to the USA from Cuba in 2002), is here: Really amazing. You should see him perform if you get a chance. From johnaimani@earthlink.net Sat Nov 01 22:38:15 2008 Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.69]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwUj8-0001YK-PZ for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 22:38:15 -0600 Received: from [76.90.206.255] (helo=D4PKYZ41) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwUj2-00065z-A0 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 00:38:08 -0400 Message-ID: <022f01c93ca4$c4206410$6600a8c0@D4PKYZ41> From: "johnaimani" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 21:37:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-ELNK-Trace: 05b11856b2307c61049c4b108d802a73239a348a220c260970778c773cbc0f2b148850678a3951553ca473d225a0f487350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 76.90.206.255 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Subject: Re: [Marxism] If you want to identify the ruling class, you have to decide what is a social class. X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 04:38:15 -0000 Ask any 'Marxist' how is it that class is determined and she/he will no = doubt aver "Class is determined by ones relationship to the means of = production". Ask them what that means and they can't tell you. These = is a scientific analysis of class and that is that class is determined = by the value-composition of the product one sells. The constituents of value are c + v + s. =20 Now c + v, in the hands of the capitalist, equal C (for Capital that can = be used to purchase constant (c) and varariable (v) capitals). And v + s, when controlled by the worker, equal l (for the full value of = the labor of the worker.).=20 We are then led to this formulation of the classes: Working Classes Wage-worker - v (the wage worker has only hir's labor-power (v) to = sell) Independent worker - c + l (the IW must have hir's own means of = production (c) and owns the full value of hir's labor (l) Petit-Bourgeois - (c + l) + (v + s) (the PB owns the constant = capital hir uses (c) and hir's own labor (l) + purchase the labor-power = of hir's workers (v) and owns the surplus produced by the = worker (s)) Capitalist Classes Petit-Bourgeois - (c + l) + (v + s) (the PB owns the constant = capital hir uses (c) and hir's own labor (l) + purchase the labor-power = of hir's workers (v) and owns the surplus produced by = the worker (s)) Capitalist - C Industrial - (Cp) where p stands for enterprise profit Rent - (Cg) where g stands for ground-rent Financial - (Ci) where i stands for interest It will be noted above that the PB lies in both classes, or rather is a = hybrid of both classes. This is so because hir's own labor (l) is = necessary to maintain hir (i.e. hir can neither maintain hir's position = solely by hir's own work (in that case hir would be an IW); nor can hir = maintain that position solely by exploiting wage-labor (in that case hir = would be a capitalist). From fred.fuentes@gmail.com Sat Nov 01 23:10:28 2008 Received: from po-out-1718.google.com ([72.14.252.159]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwVEK-0001Zh-9M for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 23:10:28 -0600 Received: by po-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id c31so9123114poi.4 for ; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 22:10:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.148.2 with SMTP id v2mr11596026wad.202.1225602627487; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 22:10:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.75.2 with HTTP; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 22:10:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:10:27 -0400 From: "Fred Fuentes" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Subject: [Marxism] NYC judge blocks transfer of Argentine funds X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 05:10:28 -0000 NYC judge blocks transfer of Argentine funds Larry Neumeister. Associated Press. October 30, 2008 http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newyork/ny-bc-ny--argentina-pension1030oct30,0,4610675.story NEW YORK - A judge has blocked Argentina from transferring any of its pension fund investments out of the United States until he hears next week the complaints of bondholders who have a $553 million judgment against the republic. U.S. District Judge Thomas P. Griesa signed an order directing the U.S. Marshals Service to await his instructions before serving any legal papers that would result in the transfer of funds. Bondholders attorney Barry R. Ostrager said Thursday that his law firm, Simpson Thacher & Bartlett LLP, sought the freeze order after Argentine President Cristina Fernandez announced plans on Oct. 21 to nationalize $23 billion in private pension fund assets to protect retirement money from the global financial crisis. "We're fairly confident some meaningful portion of those funds would be in the United States," he said. Ostrager said he was optimistic that the judge will continue the freeze order after the hearing. He said it was likely the judge would set a schedule for both sides to submit written arguments. Ostrager said the freeze order does not prevent financial companies from making their usual investment decisions related to the pension funds assets as long as they are not moved out of the United States. In court papers dated Wednesday, Ostrager said the freeze order was necessary because "the republic is already taking steps to cause nominally independent private pension fund managers to repatriate FJP (10 private pension funds) overseas investments back to Argentina, even prior to the nationalization legislation taking effect." He added: "There is every reason to believe that the Republic will orchestrate its plan to nationalize the investments or private pension funds in a manner that serves to elude and frustrate this court's judgments." According to the court papers, the private pension funds own about $26 million in assets. A lawyer for Argentina, Carmine D. Boccuzzi Jr., did not immediately return a telephone message seeking comment Thursday. Most Argentine political parties support Fernandez's plan because across Latin America people are questioning the benefits of a 1990s wave of privatizations advocated by Washington, which were seen to benefit rich people with political connections who often ended up buying companies on the cheap. "The financial crisis has laid bare the frailty of the private system," Labor Minister Carlos Tomada told lawmakers Tuesday. Argentina's Social Security administrator said Tuesday that the funds to be nationalized total $23 billion, not $30 billion as previously announced by the government. He explained the $7 billion discrepancy resulted from an initial overestimation of the funds held by the private pension funds _ their nominal value was higher than their market value From fred.fuentes@gmail.com Sat Nov 01 23:26:11 2008 Received: from po-out-1718.google.com ([72.14.252.152]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwVTX-0001aV-R0 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 23:26:11 -0600 Received: by po-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id c31so9133979poi.4 for ; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 22:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.176.1 with SMTP id y1mr11618098wae.118.1225603571030; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 22:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.75.2 with HTTP; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 22:26:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:26:10 -0400 From: "Fred Fuentes" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Subject: [Marxism] Chavez: Biz related to scandal may be expropriated X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 05:26:12 -0000 Chavez: Biz related to scandal may be expropriated By RACHEL JONES =96 5 hours ago CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) =97 President Hugo Chavez on Saturday threatened to expropriate a major Venezuelan company because of its owners' ties to a scandal involving the seizure of a suitcase stuffed with $800,000 in cash. A Miami jury is deliberating the case of Franklin Duran, a wealthy businessman who was a partner in Industrias Venoco, CA, a company that makes lubricants and other petroleum-based products in Venezuela's central Carabobo state. "The owners of this business, Venoco, are lending themselves to an action against the fatherland in the United States," Chavez said. "This business needs to be expropriated." Telephone calls to Venoco's headquarters were not returned Saturday. Duran has been accused of acting as an illegal foreign agent in the U.S. to cover up the source and destination of the cash-filled suitcase, which authorities seized last year in Argentina. Prosecutors say Venezuela sent the cash as a gift to fund Argentine President Cristina Fernandez's presidential election campaign. Both Chavez and Fernandez have denied the allegation. Duran's former Venoco business partner, Carlos Kauffmann, has testified that he and Duran were tapped by the Venezuelan government to quell the scandal by persuading Miami-based businessman and dual Venezuelan-U.S. citizen Guido Antonini Wilson =97 the man caught with the suitcase =97 to cover up the origins of the money. Duran claims he was set up by the FBI and was not acting as Venezuela's agent. The two men were equal partners in the petrochemical company but it's unclear how many assets they now hold. Earlier this month, Kauffmann testified that Venezuela had frozen his assets and bank accounts, but was prevented from answering whether the same was true of Duran. Speaking at an election event in Venezuela's oil-rich Zulia state Saturday, Chavez suggested other oil-related businesses will also have to clean up their act. "Companies that lend services to PDVSA and have machinery, assets =97 no," he said, referring to the state oil company Petroleos de Venezuela, SA. "They are full of corruption. They contaminate the environment. Violate the laws." He did not threaten any other companies with expropriation, but said the building of socialism requires the "construction of a material base." "We've advanced a little, but only a little," he said. Under Chavez, Venezuela has nationalized major players in the steel, electricity and cement sectors =97 and has taken majority control of four major oil projects =97 in the past two years. From fred.fuentes@gmail.com Sat Nov 01 23:33:09 2008 Received: from po-out-1718.google.com ([72.14.252.152]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwVaH-0001an-Ni for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 23:33:09 -0600 Received: by po-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id c31so9138695poi.4 for ; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 22:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.115.32.8 with SMTP id k8mr3053693waj.217.1225603989191; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 22:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.75.2 with HTTP; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 22:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:33:09 -0400 From: "Fred Fuentes" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" , bolivia_information@lists.riseup.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Subject: [Marxism] Bolivia: Compromise agreement allows progress X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 05:33:10 -0000 Bolivia: Compromise agreement allows progress Herve Do Alto, La Paz 31 October 2008 http://www.greenleft.org.au/2008/773/39855 There is no doubt that October 21, 2008, will go down as a historic day for the Bolivian people. Around midday, as parliamentarians were sealing an agreement for a referendum on the new draft constitution =97 set for January 25 =97 emotions swept through Plaza Murillo, the site of the parliament and presidential palace, and where indigenous and peasant organisations had gathered following their week-long march on La Paz. On the platform, various leaders, among them Fidel Surco, president of the National Coalition for Change (CONALCAM), and Pedro Montes, executive secretary of the Bolivian Workers' Central (COB), hugged Bolivian President Evo Morales, who had participated for all of the previous night in the vigil in front of Congress =97 together with thousands of gathered peasants. Far from being triumphalist following Morales's crushing victory in the August 10 recall referendum with 67.4% of the vote, the governing Movement Towards Socialism (MAS) sought to solve the nation's political crisis, which had brought the constituent process to a halt, via a political pact with the opposition. This was not without its costs. Various concessions were necessary over a wide range of issues. Among them, over departmental autonomy =97 the banner of the Santa Cruz elites. These departments will now have greater powers, compared to those provided in the original draft of the New Political Constitution of the State (NCPE). Another conflictive issue was land. A specific referendum has been approved to be held alongside the main constitution vote on January 25 has been approved, and the vote will define whether the maximum legal extension of land in Bolivia will be 5000 or 10,000 hectares, the law will not be retrospective. In other words, the currently existing large landowners will not be affected, providing they can prove they use the land for a useful "social and economic function". Perhaps, however, the biggest concession does not directly have to do with the text as such, but rather the agreement that Morales will not stand for a second term if he wins the scheduled December 2009 elections. Betrayal? Excessive concessions? Mere realpolitiks? What's true is that among the most radical Morales supporters =97 and his opponents from the left =97 some feelings of deception have potentially emerged after seeing important modifications introduced to the constitutional text adopted on December 14, 2007 by the elected constituent assembly. They now see the year-and-a-half long work of this assembly being de-legitimised by a Congress capable of reaching a consensus that was never possible in the constitutional assembly sessions. Yet, despite the rewriting of more than 140 articles, some key elements, such as state control over natural resources, suffered nearly no changes. With the approval of the text, together with the epic march that accompanied it, a feeling of having won a popular victory permeates the social organisations. Moreover, the government also achieved something fundamental: the opposition has come out of the last two months of struggle totally worn down. The tensions that built up over the last few months, between (part of) the parliamentary right inclined towards playing the democratic game and violent autonomist groups bunkered down in the east, has led to a clear fracture. The parliamentarians of the right-wing Podemos party, who participated in the signing of the agreement, have been declared traitors to the Santa Cruz autonomist cause. And it is very probable that part of the opposition will now campaign for a text that, only months ago, they had no qualms in denouncing as "a constitution stained in blood". Today, more than ever, the MAS faces a divided right, devoid of any project for the country and whose radical factions seemed to be temporarily neutralised. Within this panorama, the government's strategy has the appearance of a wager =97 one surely much more sensible than the wager that the constituent assembly would offer a "government-opposition pact" solution to the crisis back in 2006. Without rivals, and having won hegemony over the popular camp, the path seems completely open for Morales, whose victory in 2009 appears to all to be self-evident. Out of next year's elections, a parliamentary majority could emerge capable of supporting a plan of radical reforms =97 reforms until now held back by the opposition-controlled Senate. The history of Latin American constitutions is fundamentally one of ambitious texts whose application was almost always determined by the relationship of forces. While the constitution has provisionally left some of the demands of the popular movement unsatisfied, perhaps it is Bolivia's turn to demonstrate in the next few years that radical and efficient public policies can be more decisive in a process of change than a magna carter potentially confined to a piece of paper. For now, this is the hope of those who continue believing in the capacity of this government to carry out the ambitions of social transformation expressed by the social movements since the Cochabamba "water wars" in 2000 =97 the first mass resistance by the Bolivian people to the neoliberal order. [Herve Do Alto is a member of the French Revolutionary Communist League (LCR), currently living in Bolivia and studying the MAS.] From ssschwartz8@gmail.com Sun Nov 02 00:30:17 2008 Received: from fk-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.128.190]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwWTZ-0001cH-0Z for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 00:30:17 -0600 Received: by fk-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id 18so2169003fks.7 for ; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 23:30:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.103.198.20 with SMTP id a20mr6440495muq.27.1225607415364; Sat, 01 Nov 2008 23:30:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.103.213.2 with HTTP; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 23:30:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <685ad9b30811012330y76b26db9n675f892c474cdd26@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 08:30:15 +0200 From: "yossi schwartz" To: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Subject: [Marxism] Last minute stab by rightist Dobson against Obama X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 06:30:17 -0000 Louis wrote:. But, Yossi, there are major differences among us about what parties are "kosher". You think that both Nader and Obama are pork, but I do not. Well Louis First of all the debate was on Osama and you justify your line by the fact we have a disagreement about other less central imperialist parties like the Green party. In the court this unacceptable tactic is called change the front. Speaking of those lesser parties . I do not know who is your Rabi who told you that a piglet is not a pig but kindof a chicken and Kosher, but I take my ideas from Trotsky on this question. I know it was than, and he is death and many shredded his ideas to dast to find their way under the sun of the imperialists, but for people like me who take the idea of working class revolution very seriously, his ideas on this question and many others are priceless. Millions of oppressed people around the world that hate US imperialism, watch whether there is any opposition to the imperialist system. Since their skin is dark, and their immediate corrupted local rulers' skin is dark, they are not impressed by the fact that Osama or any one else skin is dark. Nor are they impressed by the fact the white Liberals are calling to vote for an imperialist with a dark skin. They prefer whites the kind of John Brown. Nor would the American black and Latin American mass would be impressed with their white "Friends" who called to vote for an imperialist candidate once he will be in power and his politics will crash their misplaced hopes. From jordanlmartinez@gmail.com Sun Nov 02 01:59:58 2008 Received: from ey-out-2122.google.com ([74.125.78.26]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwXsM-0001fe-HT for Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 01:59:58 -0600 Received: by ey-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 25so661108eya.17 for ; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 00:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.210.29.11 with SMTP id c11mr7112623ebc.53.1225612796996; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 00:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.210.88.5 with HTTP; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 00:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 00:59:56 -0700 From: "Jordan M" To: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Subject: [Marxism] US Elections And Effective Strategies X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 07:59:59 -0000 Hi, this is my first post so I hope it's efficient in bringing about good dialogue rather than sectarianism- but here goes. Recently many posts have been sent out over the issue of the working class and the popular front, mainly these topics have centered around the upcoming elections. What I wondered was some of the votes that were coming out of the mail list, McKinney, Nader, Obama, Ron Paul, other, none? I for one am not eligible to vote but am campaigning for a Nader vote out of the belief that it is the most effective way to bring a section of the working class to the left and to an indictment of the capitalist system. Are there any other thoughts out there on this topic? I'm sure there are, either way thanks for reading this. From ssschwartz8@gmail.com Sun Nov 02 01:22:25 2008 Received: from fk-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.128.187]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwYE5-0001gJ-2m for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 01:22:25 -0700 Received: by fk-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id 18so2194968fks.7 for ; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 01:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.103.247.14 with SMTP id z14mr6461690mur.39.1225614143558; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 01:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.103.213.2 with HTTP; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <685ad9b30811020122j4dcdd09dvd592df89e58d11b0@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 10:22:23 +0200 From: "yossi schwartz" To: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Subject: [Marxism] Israel is to build a very impressive new museum for tolerance in Jerusalem X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 08:22:25 -0000 . The small problem is, that it is going to be built in the parking lot on Agron Street,that used to be a Moslem's cemetery. It was destroyed as a Moslem cemetery in 1948 when the Zionist gangs expelled most of the Palestinians from their homeland. The Zionist mass media expressed great surprise to the Moslem's opposition to built a Museum for tolerance. "It shows," thus the Zionist propaganda claims. " How intolerance is Islam". We now expect that Germany will built in Auschwitz a museum for the great advance of Medicine and the big surprise of the German capitalist mass media to the protests by Anti Nazis. The headline reading "The animals who oppose medical advance". From aaron@mylists.fastmail.fm Sun Nov 02 02:33:11 2008 Received: from out5.smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.29]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwZKY-0001kA-Ud for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 02:33:11 -0700 Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.internal [10.202.2.42]) by out1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C45A18DBE5; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 04:33:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from heartbeat2.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.161]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 02 Nov 2008 04:33:05 -0500 X-Sasl-enc: DNRbkrTNYBH63OuqxitIyhWmdfTomg/H34QsvKPF+ySi 1225618384 Received: from 192.168.1.5 (c-67-180-141-8.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.180.141.8]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 44A5E2D7A8; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 04:33:04 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <022f01c93ca4$c4206410$6600a8c0@D4PKYZ41> References: <022f01c93ca4$c4206410$6600a8c0@D4PKYZ41> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:32:32 -0700 To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition From: Aaron Aarons Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: <20081102093304.44A5E2D7A8@heartbeat2.messagingengine.com> Subject: Re: [Marxism] If you want to identify the ruling class, you have to decide what is a social class. X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 09:33:11 -0000 There are a couple of problems with this. 1) Mathematically, adding c to v and/or s makes no sense, since c is a measure of value while v and s are measures of value per unit time. It's like adding miles and miles per hour. 2) More important is that, if value is measured by socially necessary labor time, it is sometimes the case that v, the value of the goods bought by the workers' wage, is greater than the total value of the product created by the worker's labor. This is due to unequal exchange, which is usually a reflection of imperialist exploitation but can also be the result of monopoly. In other words, surplus value can be negative and the capitalist can still make a profit. - Aaron >From: "johnaimani" >Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 21:37:50 -0700 > >Ask any 'Marxist' how is it that class is determined and she/he will no doubt aver "Class is determined by ones relationship to the means of production". Ask them what that means and they can't tell you. These is a scientific analysis of class and that is that class is determined by the value-composition of the product one sells. > >The constituents of value are c + v + s. > >Now c + v, in the hands of the capitalist, equal C (for Capital that can be used to purchase constant (c) and varariable (v) capitals). > >And v + s, when controlled by the worker, equal l (for the full value of the labor of the worker.). > >We are then led to this formulation of the classes: > >Working Classes > > Wage-worker - v (the wage worker has only hir's labor-power (v) to sell) > > Independent worker - c + l (the IW must have hir's own means of production (c) and owns the full value of hir's labor (l) > > Petit-Bourgeois - (c + l) + (v + s) (the PB owns the constant capital hir uses (c) and hir's own labor (l) + purchase the labor-power of hir's workers (v) and owns the surplus produced by the worker (s)) > >Capitalist Classes > > Petit-Bourgeois - (c + l) + (v + s) (the PB owns the constant capital hir uses (c) and hir's own labor (l) + purchase the labor-power of hir's workers (v) and owns the surplus produced by the worker (s)) > > Capitalist - C > > Industrial - (Cp) where p stands for enterprise profit > Rent - (Cg) where g stands for ground-rent > Financial - (Ci) where i stands for interest > >It will be noted above that the PB lies in both classes, or rather is a hybrid of both classes. This is so because hir's own labor (l) is necessary to maintain hir (i.e. hir can neither maintain hir's position solely by hir's own work (in that case hir would be an IW); nor can hir maintain that position solely by exploiting wage-labor (in that case hir would be a capitalist). From walterlx@earthlink.net Sun Nov 02 04:44:56 2008 Received: from elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.63]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwbO3-0001t4-QQ for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 04:44:56 -0700 Received: from [209.86.224.52] (helo=mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwbO2-0005br-Jz for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 06:44:54 -0500 Received: from 216.175.74.67 by webmail.earthlink.net with HTTP; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 06:44:53 -0500 Message-ID: <1932107.1225626294455.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 03:44:54 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: Walter Lippmann To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 584b452a2df9bf4e1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec796e6ebd3a86f14caadaea2534a64ded83350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.52 Subject: Re: [Marxism] Bolivia: Compromise agreement allows progress X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 11:44:56 -0000 In addition to the political arrangments which Latin America's first indigenoug president has made, there are a few other items of consequence on his table. First, the struggle against drought and beyond that the struggle with cocaine. PL's report tells us about the first, IKN's about the second. Washington's termination of the trade prefernces with Bolivia, announced a month ago and implemented a few days ago have gone largely remarked in the U.S.=20 media. Perhaps it's because, when compared with the situation in Colombia, as IKN reports, it's a difference they'd rather note=20 have close public attention paid to. In addition, AFP presents additional details on the struggle against cocaine in Bolivia. In these struggles, Evo Morales deserves our fullest support. ECONOMIST on Colombia: Not that hard, when any body will do. http://www.economist.com/world/americas/PrinterFriendly.cfm?story_id=3D1252= 2940 Walter Lippmann Los Angeles, California =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Bolivia Declares Drought Emergency La Paz, Nov 1(Prensa Latina) The municipal governments of 17 southern Bolivian territories are taking measures Saturday as part of the emergency state decreed due to an intense drought. In accordance with Water Minister Rene Orellana, the executive has assigned two million dollars to drill new wells and help with other needs of the regions of Tarija, Chuquisaca and Santa Cruz. Those resources, he said, would come from international cooperation and would be administered through the Social Prevention Fund. The government will intervene quickly in the region of Chaco to cooperate with people affected in a combined action between the Ministry of Defense and its Vice Ministry of Civil Defense, he added. For his part, the director of Attention to Disasters and Emergencies, General Freddy Blanco, stated that the Emergency Operation Center was activated. The last reports claimed that 7,000 families were affected by the lack of water, said Blanco. A report of the Direction of Emergencies and Aid of the Vice Ministry of Civil Defense and Cooperation to Integral Development, pointed out that during the months of September and October, there was a greater incidence of drought, affecting cattle breeding and agriculture. The weather report of the National Service of Meteorology and Hydrology indicates that there is a deficit of precipitation in 70 percent of the highland, valleys and in Chaco. iom tac ga PL-3 11/1/08 The Government of Evo Morales and the Fight Against Cocaine http://incakolanews.blogspot.com/2008/11/government-of-evo-morales-and-figh= t.html Today at Chimor=C3=A9, Cochabamba, Evo inspected the troops that have cleared 5000ha of coca plantations from Bolivian soil this year and announced he was kicking out the DEA The US government is trying to paint the Bolivia of Evo Morales as some sort of friend to the Cocaine business and enemy of....well everything, really. So riddle me this one: Bolivia's Special Force to Fight Cocaine (FELCN) is the body in charge of fighting drug trafficking. Here's a list of its cocaine seizure tonnages for the first 10 months of the years 2005 to 2008: 2005: 11.3 metric tonnes (MT) of cocaine/coca paste seized by FELCN 2006: 14.0 metric tonnes (MT) of cocaine/coca paste seized by FELCN 2007: 14.8 metric tonnes (MT) of cocaine/coca paste seized by FELCN 2008: 25.5 metric tonnes (MT) of cocaine/coca paste seized by FELCN This isn't some list of made-up numbers. We are talking documented seizures by a bunch of brave police officers that are up against very organized armed gangs. Next productive acreage: 2000: 14,000 hectares . . 2004: 27,700 hectares 2005: 25,400 hectares 2006: 27,500 hectares 2007: 25,000 hectares 2008: 22,000 hectares These are the official numbers, but it's widely assumed that in Bolivia there are around 5,000 extra hectares to add to each year's total. This means that, according to the International Crisis Group's 2008 report "Latin American Drugs I: Losing the Fight" (a copy available from Otto on request) there is around 100MT of potential cocaine production in Bolivia in 2008, if you subtract the 12,000 hectares of coca that is grown for traditional uses such as chewing, infusions and ceremonies. This means that, roughly, Bolivia is producing around 100MT of cocaine and 25.5MT of it gets seized, which compares, for example, with Peru's potential production of 300MT, its probable production of 196MT (according to the UN) and its 25MT of cocaine seizures this year. Don't even get me started on the world's number one player Colombia, responsible for over 60% of the world's cocaine (maybe 750 to 800MT right now, of which only a tiny fraction gets seized). Ready for the big finale? Evo Morales became President of Bolivia on January 22nd 2006. Yep, that's right; since Doctor Morales assumed the presidency cocaine production acreage has dropped by 20% and cocaine seizures have more than doubled. We do hear from the UN that absolute cocaine production rose 5% in Bolivia last year, even though hectares under cultivation dropped. This because the narcos are using more intensive farming techniques and hybrids that produce more alkaloids. However in the same period Colombia's cocaine production rose by no less than 27%! And remember, this is the country that the USA has donated U$6.7Bn to for its "Plan Colombia" war on drugs this decade (Colombia now has 50% more area under cultivation since 2000). But back to Bolivia, and if cocaine production goes up about 5MT in a year and cocaine seizures go up by 10.7MT in the same period, doesn't that mean Evo Morales is winning the war on drugs in his little patch? No wonder Evo is kicking out the DEA; wherever they go drug production increases, and wherever they leave it goes down. For another example, check out the enormous drop in heroin production in the far eastern golden triangle in the brief period when the Taliban had control, and look at the production figures since the DEA got back into town. I wonder why........... =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Morales halts US anti-drug efforts in Bolivia=20 14 hours ago http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hq_vqrJ3osGsMyOTY_m1t4_MvneA LA PAZ (AFP) =E2=80=94 President Evo Morales has said he is suspending the work of the US Drug Enforcement Administration in Bolivia, accusing it of having encouraged political unrest that killed 19 people in September. The US government rejected the accusations as "absurd" and warned that an end to US-Bolivian cooperation would only result in increased violence and drug trafficking. "From today all the activities of the US DEA are suspended indefinitely," the Bolivian leader said in the coca-growing region of Chimore, in the central province of Chapare, where he was evaluating efforts to combat drug trafficking. "Personnel from the DEA supported activities of the unsuccessful coup d'etat in Bolivia," Morales said, referring to fighting in five of the country's nine departments in September that resulted in 19 deaths. Morales said DEA agents had been "conducting political espionage to fund criminal groups" who aimed at "attacks on the lives of (government) officials, and the president himself." He also directly accused DEA officials of disrupting government activities during the unrest in September by "funding civic leaders with the aim of sabotaging airports in eastern Bolivia ... to prevent visits from (government) officials." "We have the obligation to defend the dignity and sovereignty of the Bolivian people," Morales said at the airport in Chimore, where an anti-drug base funded in the 1990s by the United States is located. Morales did not say whether he would order DEA staff to leave Bolivia, as coca-growers have asked him to do. The growers had already forced officials of the US Agency for International Development to halt their operations in two provinces where the aid agency was seeking to help growers find alternatives to raising coca. "We reject the accusation that DEA or any other part of the US government supported the opposition or conspired against the Bolivian government," US State Department spokesman Karl Duckworth told AFP. "These accusations are false and absurd and we deny them. We value our relationship with the Bolivian security forces in combatting narcotics production and trafficking," he said. "Should US cooperation be ended, more narcotics will be produced and shipped from Bolivia. The corrupting effects, violence and tragedy which will result will mainly harm Bolivia as well as the principal consumers of Bolivian cocaine in the neighboring Latin American countries, Europe and West Africa." The US embassy in Bolivia has also denied that DEA and USAID were conducting political work in the country. In Washington, the DEA reacted swiftly to the Morales announcement. "It's an unfortunate situation and an unfortunate decision on his part," DEA spokesman Garrison Courtney told AFP. He added that there had been dialogue for the past three months with Bolivian officials over the future of the agency's work in the country, and acknowledged that the DEA was initially asked to leave a forward operating base. Courtney would not be drawn on whether DEA believed Morales ordered the suspension as a result of Washington placing Bolivia on a blacklist of drug-transit or drug-producing countries in mid-September for failing to live up to their obligations to battle the narcotics trade. "We have had a great working relationship with our counterparts there for over 30 years," he said. President George W. Bush had written in a finding released September 16 that Bolivia joined Myanmar and Venezuela, which were already on the list in 2007, as countries that "failed demonstrably" in that regard. Just five days before Bush put Bolivia on the blacklist, Morales had ordered the expulsion of the US ambassador, Philip Goldberg, after accusing him of encouraging division in the country by backing opposition figures. In a briefing before leaving La Paz, Goldberg warned that Bolivia, which receives 100 million dollars a year in US aid to anti-drug efforts, could expect "serious consequences" for starting a diplomatic row with the United States. Morales, Bolivia's first indigenous president, has served as the leader of the Bolivian coca-growers union. The coca plant, from which cocaine is derived, has many uses in traditional Andean culture. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D WALTER LIPPMANN Los Angeles, California Editor-in-Chief, CubaNews http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaNews/ "Cuba - Un Para=C3=ADso bajo el bloqueo" =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From ffeldman@bellatlantic.net Sun Nov 02 05:41:10 2008 Received: from vms042pub.verizon.net ([206.46.252.42]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwcGU-0001yk-A9 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 05:41:10 -0700 Received: from office1pc ([138.89.80.188]) by vms042.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0K9P00BSMHWF5V22@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 06:41:04 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 07:41:18 -0500 From: "Fred Feldman" To: , Message-id: <2D1B5B8129354706BABB3356197056D1@office1pc> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thread-index: Ack86E1JQm2BtXV7Q36+1QnmdhGJXQ== Subject: [Marxism] What does this election signify? X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 12:41:10 -0000 I will be voting for McKinney and Clemente on the Green Party ticket this Tuesday in New Jersey. I also have said that I think the election of Obama is preferable not on a "lesser evil" basis but as reflection of new setbacks to racism, and of changing moods somewhat more in our direction in broad strata of youth and working people. I feel strong solidarity with the drive among the Black people of the United States, which is near universal and of high intensity, to get a Black elected president this year. That fight is a legitimate one, and an inevitable and just one. And it is a good thing that large numbers of Latinos, Asians, and whites, including millions of working people, have rallied to it. It remains important to fight any and all efforts to influence the outcome through denial of the right to vote to Blacks and Latinos, and other violations of voting rights. In the actual history of the class and social struggles, in the United States, an Obama victory will be forward, not backward, motion. But at the same time, it will resolve nothing. Most fundamentally, what is being decided in this election is the same issue decided in every election in the history of the United State -- which representative of the class enemy will oppress working and oppressed people for the next four years. Despite the progressive political motion that has been reflected in support for the Obama campaign, he is the candidate of an imperialist party to govern the United States in the interests of US imperialism, which means against the oppressed and exploited people of the United States, who constitute a sizable majority. This is indicated by such things as his support for the continued presence of US troops in Iraq and his plan to intensify the war in Afghanistan, and to get the US more involved in conflict in Pakistan. It is shown by the hostility he has voiced to the regimes in Bolivia, Venezuela and Cuba (despite his promises to ease aspects of the economic blockade of Cuba, a brutal act against the people of Cuba, and an act of aggression that violates international law. It is also indicated by the indications he is dropping about the need for "belt-tightening" to pay for the costs of the wars and for the enormous gifts to the billionaires -- with more coming apparently for the auto industry. There is no reason to doubt that we will be having to fight Obama, assuming he is elected, as we have had to fight his predecessors in the office. And this is an experience that the working people of the United States, including the Black community, will have to go through as well. We are undoubtedly going to have to resist powerful pressures that are going to come down to convince us that we have to do "our share" to pay for their "deficit." The rulers never care about the deficit when it comes to organizing huge government expenditures on themselves, but which they choose to get all upset about when it comes to our health care, wages, pensions, education, environment, and so on. We are in a sharply changing situation and firm predictions about exactly what will happen next are on shaky ground. But one basic thing said by Marxist list contributor Craig Bozefsky (a comrade on the Marxism List who disagreed with my estimation of the motion around the Obama campaign) is absolutely true: We will have to be fighting for what we have and need, whoever is elected. And the poor and oppressed of this country will keep nothing and gain nothing, especially in the context of economic fissures and breakdowns in the system which are still deepening. without a struggle. Fred Feldman From jonflanders@jflan.net Sun Nov 02 05:47:26 2008 Received: from [69.72.153.18] (helo=oak.edmunds-enterprises.com) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwcMX-0001z8-TX for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 05:47:25 -0700 Received: from pool-70-18-108-6.alb.east.verizon.net ([70.18.108.6] helo=[192.168.0.2]) by oak.edmunds-enterprises.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KwcML-00010H-3G for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 07:47:13 -0500 From: Jon Flanders To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 07:47:19 -0500 Message-Id: <1225630039.5203.6.camel@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.0-2mdv2008.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - oak.edmunds-enterprises.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - lists.econ.utah.edu X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - jflan.net X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Subject: Re: [Marxism] US Elections And Effective Strategies X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 12:47:26 -0000 On Sun, 2008-11-02 at 00:59 -0700, Jordan M wrote: > > What I wondered was some of the votes that were coming out of the mail list, > McKinney, Nader, Obama, Ron Paul, other, none? > > I for one am not eligible to vote but am campaigning for a Nader vote out of > the belief that it is the most effective way to bring a section of the > working class to the left and to an indictment of the capitalist system. Are > there any other thoughts out there on this topic? I'm sure there are, either > way thanks for reading this. Thanks for posting this question Jordan. You've hit on the most important question by far. Who or what do you CAMPAIGN for? This is way more critical than who you cast an individual ballot for. I think a lot of us on this list would agree that CAMPAIGNING and ADVOCATING a vote for Nader is a start towards the critical step of the working class ending it's support for the corporate Democratic Party and establishing it's own party to represent the class interest of the workers. Jon Flanders From brandelune@gmail.com Sun Nov 02 05:54:33 2008 Received: from smtp9.tiki.ne.jp ([218.40.30.106]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwcTR-0001zO-6D for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 05:54:33 -0700 Received: from [192.168.11.6] (pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp [210.136.182.44]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp9.tiki.ne.jp (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mA2CsOQ3033709 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 21:54:25 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from brandelune@gmail.com) Message-Id: <291DF86E-92D5-4096-837D-420505515503@gmail.com> From: JC Helary To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition In-Reply-To: <2D1B5B8129354706BABB3356197056D1@office1pc> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 21:54:24 +0900 References: <2D1B5B8129354706BABB3356197056D1@office1pc> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.929.2) Subject: Re: [Marxism] What does this election signify? X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 12:54:33 -0000 On dimanche 02 nov. 08, at 21:41, Fred Feldman wrote: > This is indicated by such things as his support for the continued > presence > of US troops in Iraq and his plan to intensify the war in > Afghanistan, and > to get the US more involved in conflict in Pakistan. I've always found his support for the action in Afghanistan a little bit phony. It sounds like he needs to say "yes" to Afghanistan to sound legitimate in saying "no" (a relative "no") to Irak. For me it is all gesticulations to appease the military maniacs while he focuses on the economic issues that are more likely to seat him at the White House. I mean, it is not like he based his campaign on military/foreign issues did he ? Jean-Christophe Helary From sartesian@earthlink.net Sun Nov 02 06:08:09 2008 Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.62]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Kwcga-000200-Sz for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 06:08:08 -0700 Received: from [69.86.1.8] (helo=dmsthinkpad) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwcgV-00045A-7r for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 08:08:03 -0500 Message-ID: <2D8D2DA76BE9431794782C893A60A0E2@dmsthinkpad> From: "S. Artesian" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" References: <022f01c93ca4$c4206410$6600a8c0@D4PKYZ41> <20081102093304.44A5E2D7A8@heartbeat2.messagingengine.com> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 08:08:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-ELNK-Trace: cb12c76ec1f5bb3a85338a7d01cb3b6a7e972de0d01da940e26101e83e6d165cb257cf0e1dc4913d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.86.1.8 Subject: Re: [Marxism] If you want to identify the ruling class, you have to decide what is a social class. X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 13:08:09 -0000 In reference to 1: Marx uses "c+v+s" extensively. That is in fact how he defines the value of a commodity, is it not? c,v,s are in fact all made equivalent through their expression in money terms, in their exchange, with the s hidden by the wage form. 2. Can you provide an example of this negative surplus yielding a capitalist profit? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Aarons" To: Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 3:32 AM Subject: Re: [Marxism] If you want to identify the ruling class, you have to decide what is a social class. From lnp3@panix.com Sun Nov 02 06:12:16 2008 Received: from mail2.panix.com ([166.84.1.73]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwckZ-00020e-Tr for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 06:12:15 -0700 Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2D1B3481E for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 08:12:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from louis.panix.com (cpe-66-108-163-221.nyc.res.rr.com [66.108.163.221]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA488D6BC for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 08:12:13 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 08:12:10 -0500 To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition From: Louis Proyect In-Reply-To: <685ad9b30811012330y76b26db9n675f892c474cdd26@mail.gmail.co m> References: <685ad9b30811012330y76b26db9n675f892c474cdd26@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Message-Id: <20081102131213.BA488D6BC@mailbackend.panix.com> Subject: Re: [Marxism] Last minute stab by rightist Dobson against Obama X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 13:12:16 -0000 Yossi wrote: > Speaking of those lesser parties . I do not know who is your Rabi who told >you that a piglet is not a pig but kindof a chicken and Kosher, but I take >my ideas from Trotsky on this question. I wasn't aware that Trotsky ever had anything to say about Ralph Nader. From lnp3@panix.com Sun Nov 02 06:25:44 2008 Received: from mail2.panix.com ([166.84.1.73]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Kwcxb-00023I-QS for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 06:25:43 -0700 Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78A2834824 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 08:25:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from louis.panix.com (cpe-66-108-163-221.nyc.res.rr.com [66.108.163.221]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65C95DBD5 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 08:25:43 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 08:25:18 -0500 To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition From: Louis Proyect Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Message-Id: <20081102132543.65C95DBD5@mailbackend.panix.com> Subject: [Marxism] Lenin's Tomb on the Congo X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 13:25:44 -0000 http://leninology.blogspot.com/2008/10/congo-whitey-to-rescue.html From walterlx@earthlink.net Sun Nov 02 06:47:01 2008 Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.67]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwdID-0002Jk-69 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 06:47:01 -0700 Received: from [209.86.224.40] (helo=elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwdI7-0007Xj-Dy for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 08:46:55 -0500 Received: from 216.175.74.67 by webmail.earthlink.net with HTTP; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 08:46:55 -0500 Message-ID: <26224934.1225633615422.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 08:46:55 -0500 (EST) From: Walter Lippmann To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 584b452a2df9bf4e1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79f228d83f7180cc94ec19efb66c8d540f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.40 Subject: Re: [Marxism] What does this election signify? X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 13:47:01 -0000 If Obama is elected, and can't be assume by now, it would resolve the question of whether or not a Black person could be elected president of the United States of America, quite a matter indeed, and a hell of a lot more than "nothing". Obama's task, the one he's chosen to conduct, and the one whom his wealthy backers want him to carry out, is a modest but important change in the style and tone of capitalist=20 rule in the United States, with various implications for the world.=20 Should the United States of American continue to be feared, hated and reviled by masses of people throughout the planet, and is that good or bad for U.S. capitalist business in the world today? Or should a slightly lower and somewhat less combative profile serve the interests of US capitalism in=20 a better way? That's the difference as I see it. And that's what at stake, a lot more than nothing, certainly from the viewpoint of smaller less powerful states and peoples. Not socialism, not which class shall rule. That's settled and it already was settled before the campaign began. It would be nice if there were decent protest votes for McKinney and Nader in other places, though not enough to=20 prevent Obama from willing, and thus cause liberals after the election to blame McKinney or Nader for their loss as they did in 2000. But this is all vague and uncertain from my perspective here in Los Angeles. Support for McKinney and Nader would indicate a layer who would be able to open up protests sooner than those who'd supported Obama, and whose whose expectations Obama is now trying to dampen. And wouldn't it be nice of one or more of those three Cuban exile militants in Florida got knocked out, and also if Cindy Sheehan got a surprisingly large turnout? Anyway, that's enough of my thinking out loud this morning. Walter Lippmann Los Angeles, California Fidel Castro wrote earlier in the campaign: In his speech, Obama portrays the Cuban revolution as anti-democratic=20 and lacking in respect for freedom and human rights. It is the exact=20 same argument which, almost without exception, U.S. administrations=20 have used again and again to justify their crimes against our country.=20 The blockade, in and of itself, is an act of genocide. I don=E2=80=99t want= =20 to see U.S. children inculcated with those shameful values. An armed revolution in our country might not have been needed without=20 the military interventions, Platt Amendment and economic colonialism=20 visited upon Cuba. ------------------------------ I am not questioning Obama=E2=80=99s great intelligence, his debate skills = or his work ethic. He is a talented orator and is ahead of his rivals in the electoral race. I feel sympathy for his wife and little girls, who accompany him and give him encouragement every Tuesday. It is indeed a touching human spectacle. Nevertheless, I am obliged to raise a number of delicate questions. I do not expect answers; I wish only to raise them for the record. The only form of cooperation the United States can offer other nations=20 consist in the sending of military professionals to those countries.=20 It cannot offer anything else, for it lacks a sufficient number of=20 people willing to sacrifice themselves for others and offer substantial=20 aid to a country in need (though Cuba has known and relied on the=20 cooperation of excellent U.S. doctors). They are not to blame for this,=20 for society does not inculcate such values in them on a massive scale.=20 We have never subordinated cooperation with other countries to=20 ideological requirements. We offered the United States our help when=20 hurricane Katrina lashed the city of New Orleans. Our internationalist=20 medical brigade bears the glorious name of Henry Reeve, a young man,=20 born in the United States, who fought and died for Cuba=E2=80=99s sovereign= ty=20 in our first war of independence. http://www.walterlippmann.com/fc-05-25-2008.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D FRED FELDMAN writes: I also have said that I think the election of Obama is preferable not on a "lesser evil" basis but as reflection of new setbacks to racism, and of changing moods somewhat more in our direction in broad strata of youth and working people.=20 ----------------------------------------------- But at the same time, it will resolve nothing. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D WALTER LIPPMANN Los Angeles, California Editor-in-Chief, CubaNews http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaNews/ "Cuba - Un Para=C3=ADso bajo el bloqueo" =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From lnp3@panix.com Sun Nov 02 06:58:02 2008 Received: from mail2.panix.com ([166.84.1.73]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwdSr-0002NC-PD for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 06:58:02 -0700 Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4268534819; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 08:58:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from louis.panix.com (cpe-66-108-163-221.nyc.res.rr.com [66.108.163.221]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61D35D236; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 08:58:00 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 08:57:55 -0500 To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition , pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu From: Louis Proyect Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Message-Id: <20081102135800.61D35D236@mailbackend.panix.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [Marxism] How did we get suckered into this? X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 13:58:02 -0000 NY Times, November 2, 2008 The Reckoning From Midwest to M.T.A., Pain From Global Gamble By CHARLES DUHIGG and CARTER DOUGHERTY "People come up to me in the grocery store and say, 'How did we get=20 suckered into this?' " =97 Marc Hujik, of the Kenosha, Wis., school board On a snowy day two years ago, the school board in Whitefish Bay,=20 Wis., gathered to discuss a looming problem: how to plug a gaping=20 hole in the teachers' retirement plan. It turned to David W. Noack, a trusted local investment banker, who=20 proposed that the district borrow from overseas and use the money for=20 a complex investment that offered big profits. "Every three months you're going to get a payment," he promised,=20 according to a tape of the meeting. But would it be risky? "There=20 would need to be 15 Enrons" for the district to lose money, he said. The board and four other nearby districts ultimately invested $200=20 million in the deal, most of it borrowed from an Irish bank. Without=20 realizing it, the schools were imitating hedge funds. Half a continent away, New York subway officials were also being=20 wooed by bankers. Officials were told that just as home buyers had=20 embraced adjustable-rate loans, New York could save money by=20 borrowing at lower interest rates that changed every day. For some of the deals, the officials were encouraged to rely on the=20 same Irish bank as the Wisconsin schools. During the go-go investing years, school districts, transit agencies=20 and other government entities were quick to jump into the global=20 economy, hoping for fast gains to cover growing pension costs and=20 budgets without raising taxes. Deals were arranged by armies of=20 persuasive financiers who received big paydays. But now, hundreds of cities and government agencies are facing=20 economic turmoil. Far from being isolated examples, the Wisconsin=20 schools and New York's transportation system are among the many=20 players in a financial fiasco that has ricocheted globally. The Wisconsin schools are on the brink of losing their money,=20 confronting educators with possible budget cuts. Interest rates for=20 New York's subways are skyrocketing and contributing to budget woes=20 that have transportation officials considering higher fares and=20 delaying long-planned track repairs. And the bank at the center of the saga, named Depfa, is now in=20 trouble, threatening the stability of its parent company in Munich=20 and forcing German officials to intervene with a multibillion-dollar=20 bailout to stop a chain reaction that could freeze Germany's economic sys= tem. "I am really worried," said Becky Velvikis, a first-grade teacher at=20 Grewenow Elementary in Kenosha, Wis., one of the districts that=20 invested in Mr. Noack's deal. "If millions of dollars are gone, what=20 happens to my retirement? Or the construction paper and pencils and=20 supplies we need to teach?" The trail through Wisconsin, New York and Europe illustrates how this=20 financial crisis has moved around the world so fast, why it is so=20 hard to tame, and why cities, schools and many other institutions=20 will probably struggle for years. "The local papers and radio shows call us idiots, and now when I go=20 home, my kids ask me, 'Dad, did you do something wrong?' " said Shawn=20 Yde, the director of business services in the Whitefish Bay district.=20 "This is something I'll regret until the day I die." Selling Risk Whitefish Bay's school district did not intend to become a hedge=20 fund. It and four nearby districts were just trying to finance=20 retirement obligations that were growing as health care costs rose. Mr. Noack, the local representative of Stifel, Nicolaus & Company, a=20 St. Louis investment bank, had been advising Wisconsin school boards=20 for two decades, helping them borrow for new gymnasiums and=20 classrooms. His father had taught at an area high school for 47=20 years. All six of his children attended Milwaukee schools. Mr. Noack told the Whitefish Bay board that investing in the global=20 economy carried few risks, according to the tape. "What's the best investment? It's called a collateralized debt=20 obligation," or a C.D.O., Mr. Noack said. He described it as a=20 collection of bonds from 105 of the most reputable companies that=20 would pay the school board a small return every quarter. "We're being very conservative," Mr. Noack told the board, composed=20 of lawyers, salesmen and a homemaker who lived in the affluent=20 Milwaukee suburb. Soon, Whitefish Bay and the four other districts borrowed $165=20 million from Depfa and contributed $35 million of their own money to=20 purchase three C.D.O.'s sold by the Royal Bank of Canada, which had a=20 relationship with Mr. Noack's company. But Mr. Noack's explanation of a C.D.O. was very wrong. Mr. Noack,=20 who through his lawyer declined to comment, had attended only a=20 two-hour training session on C.D.O.'s, he told a friend. The schools' $200 million was actually used as collateral for a=20 complicated form of insurance guaranteeing about $20 billion of=20 corporate bonds. That investment =97 known as a synthetic C.D.O. =97=20 committed the boards to paying off other bondholders if corporations=20 failed to honor their debts. If just 6 percent of the bonds insured went bad, the Wisconsin=20 educators could lose all their money. If none of the bonds defaulted,=20 the schools would receive about $1.8 million a year after paying off=20 their own debt. By comparison, the C.D.O.'s offered only a modestly=20 better return than a $35 million investment in ultra-safe Treasury=20 bonds, which would have paid about $1.5 million a year, with virtually no= risk. The boards, as part of their deal, received thick packets of documents. "I've never read the prospectus," said Marc Hujik, a local financial=20 adviser and a member of the Kenosha school board who spent 13 years=20 on Wall Street. "We had all our questions answered satisfactorily by=20 Dave Noack, so I wasn't worried." Wisconsin schools were not the only ones to jump into such=20 complicated financial products. More than $1.2 trillion of C.D.O.'s=20 have been sold to buyers of all kinds since 2005 =97 including many=20 cities and government agencies =97 an increase of 270 percent from the=20 four previous years combined, according to Thomson Reuters. "Selling these products to municipalities was pretty widespread,"=20 said Janet Tavakoli, a finance industry consultant in Chicago. "They=20 tend to be less sophisticated. So bankers sell them products stuffed=20 with junk." From the Wisconsin deal, the Royal Bank of Canada received promises=20 of payments totaling about $11.2 million, according to documents.=20 Stifel Nicolaus made about $1.2 million. Mr. Noack's total salary was=20 about $300,000 a year, according to someone with knowledge of his=20 finances. And Depfa received interest on its loans. In separate statements, the Royal Bank of Canada and Stifel Nicolaus=20 said board members signed documents indicating they understood the=20 investments' risks. Both companies said they were not financial=20 advisers to the boards but merely sold them products or services.=20 Stifel Nicolaus said its relationship with the boards ended in 2007.=20 Mr. Noack now works for a rival firm. "Everyone knew New York guys were making tons of money on these kinds=20 of deals," said Mr. Hujik, of the school board. "It wasn't=20 implausible that we could make money, too." A Bank Goes Global By the time Depfa financed the Wisconsin schools' investment, it had=20 already become an emblem of the new global economy. It was founded 86=20 years ago as a sleepy German lender, and for most of its history had=20 focused on its home market. But in 2002 a new chief executive, Gerhard Bruckermann, moved Depfa=20 to the freewheeling financial center of Dublin to take advantage of=20 low corporate taxes. He soon pushed the company into S=E3o Paulo,=20 Mumbai, Warsaw, Hong Kong, Dallas, New York, Tokyo and elsewhere.=20 Depfa became one of Europe's most profitable banks and was famous for=20 lavish events and large paychecks. In 2006, top executives took home=20 the equivalent of $33 million at today's exchange rates. Mr. Bruckermann was a gregarious leader who joked that he hoped to=20 make all employees into millionaires. He divided his time between a=20 London home and a vast farm in Spain, where he grew exotic medicinal=20 plants. And his success fueled an arrogance, former colleagues say. Mr. Bruckermann once told a trade publication that Depfa, unlike=20 German banks, understood how to benefit from the global economy.=20 "With our efforts, we are like the one-eyed man who becomes king in=20 the land of the blind," he was quoted as saying. Mr. Bruckermann, who left the bank earlier this year, did not respond=20 to requests for an interview. But as Depfa grew, other European banks began competing with the=20 firm. So executives stretched into riskier deals =97 the sort that=20 would eventually send shockwaves across Europe and the United States. Some of Mr. Bruckermann's employees grew concerned about deals like=20 one struck in 2005 with the Metropolitan Transportation Authority of=20 New York, the agency overseeing the city and suburban subways, buses=20 and trains. For years, municipal agencies like the M.T.A. had raised money by=20 issuing plain-vanilla bonds with fixed interest rates. But then=20 bankers began telling officials that there was a way to get cheaper finan= cing. Bankers said that cities, like home buyers, could save money with=20 adjustable-rate loans, where the payments started low and changed=20 over time. What they did not emphasize was that such payments could=20 eventually skyrocket. Such borrowing =97 known as variable-rate bonds =97= =20 also carried big fees for Wall Street. The pitches were very successful. Municipalities issued twice as many=20 variable-rate bonds last year as they did a decade earlier. But variable-rate bonds had a hitch: many investors would purchase=20 them only if a bank like Depfa was hired as a buyer of last resort,=20 ready to acquire bonds from investors who could find no other buyers.=20 Depfa collected fees for serving that role, but expected it would=20 rarely have to honor such pledges. Mr. Bruckermann's salespeople traveled the world encouraging=20 officials to sign up for variable-rate loans. And bureaucrats and=20 politicians, including some in New York, jumped in. By 2006 Depfa was the largest buyer of last resort in the world,=20 standing behind $2.9 billion of bonds issued that year alone. It=20 backed a $200 million bond issued by the M.T.A. But as Depfa grew, it became more reliant on enormous short-term=20 loans to finance its operations. Those loans cost less, and thus=20 helped the bank achieve higher profits, but only when times were=20 good. Indeed, some employees were worried about that debt. But Mr. Bruckermann plowed ahead, and it paid off. In 2007, even as=20 the global economy was softening, Mr. Bruckermann persuaded one of=20 Germany's biggest lenders, Hypo Real Estate, to purchase Depfa for=20 $7.8 billion. Mr. Bruckermann's cut was more than $150 million. He=20 left the company to grow oranges on his Spanish estate. The Risks Turn Bad Last March the delicate web tying Wisconsin, Dublin and Manhattan=20 became an anchor dragging everyone down. Mr. Yde, the director of business services for the Whitefish Bay=20 district, began receiving troubling messages indicating the=20 district's investments were declining. Worried, he started coming=20 into his office at dawn, before the hallways of Whitefish Bay High=20 School filled with students. As the sun rose, Mr. Yde searched for explanations by the light of=20 his computer screen. He Googled "C.D.O.'s." He called bankers in=20 London and New York. Each person referred him to someone else. Then notices arrived saying that the bonds insured by Whitefish Bay's=20 C.D.O.'s were defaulting. It became increasingly likely that the=20 district's money would be seized to pay off other bondholders. Most,=20 if not all, of the $200 million would probably be lost. As other districts received similar notices, panic grew. For some=20 boards, interest payments on borrowed money were now larger than=20 revenue from the investments. Officials began quietly warning that=20 they might have to dip into school funds. "This is going to have a tremendous financial impact," said Robert F.=20 Kitchen, a member of the West Allis-West Milwaukee school board.=20 Officials say some districts may have to cut courses like art and=20 drama, curtail gym and classroom maintenance, or forgo replacing=20 teachers who retire. Problems were emerging elsewhere, as well. Depfa's executives were realizing that their loans to the Wisconsin=20 schools were unlikely to be repaid. Additionally, bonds all over the=20 world were declining in value, exposing the company to the=20 possibility they would have to make good on their pledges as a buyer=20 of last resort. And Depfa was still borrowing billions each month to=20 cover its short-term loans. By autumn, the short-term debt of the=20 bank and its parent company, Hypo, totaled $81 billion. Then, in mid-September, the American investment bank Lehman Brothers=20 went bankrupt. Short-term lending markets froze up. Ratings agencies,=20 including Standard & Poor's, downgraded Depfa, citing the company's=20 difficulties borrowing at affordable rates. That set off a crisis in Germany, where officials worried that=20 Depfa's sudden need for cash would drag down its parent company and=20 set off a chain reaction at other banks. The German government and=20 private banks extended $64 billion in credit to Hypo to stop it from impl= oding. "We will not allow the distress of one financial institution to=20 endanger the entire system," Angela Merkel, the German chancellor,=20 said at the time. That crisis spread almost immediately to the M.T.A. The transportation authority, guided by Gary Dellaverson, a rumpled,=20 cigarillo-smoking chief financial officer, had $3.75 billion of=20 variable-rate debt outstanding. About $200 million of that debt was backed by Depfa. When the bank=20 was downgraded, investors dumped those transportation bonds, because=20 of worries they would get stuck with them if Depfa's problems=20 worsened. Depfa was forced to buy $150 million of them, and bonds=20 worth billions of dollars issued by other municipalities. Then came the twist: Depfa's contracts said that if it bought back=20 bonds, the municipalities had to pay a higher-than-average interest=20 rate. The New York transportation authority's repayment obligation=20 could eventually balloon by about $12 million a year on the Depfa loans a= lone. On its own, that cost could be absorbed by the agency. But, as the=20 economy declined, the M.T.A. had lost hundreds of millions because=20 tax receipts =97 which finance part of its budget =97 were falling. And=20 its ability to renew its variable-rate bonds at low interest rates=20 was hurt by the trouble at Depfa and other banks. The transportation=20 authority now faces a $900 million shortfall, according to officials.=20 It is "fairly breathtaking," Mr. Dellaverson told the M.T.A.'s=20 finance committee. "This is not a tolerable long-term position for us=20 to be in." In a recent interview, Mr. Dellaverson defended New York's use of=20 variable bonds. "Variable-rate debt has helped M.T.A. save millions of dollars, and=20 we've been conservative in issuing it," he said. "But there are=20 risks, which we work hard to mitigate. Usually it works. But what's=20 happening today is a total lack of marketplace rationality." In a statement, the transportation authority said that it was=20 exploring options to reduce the cost of the Depfa-backed bonds, that=20 its variable-rate bonds had delivered savings even during the current=20 turmoil and that the agency had remained within its budget on debt=20 payments this year. However, the transportation authority has already announced it will=20 raise subway and train fares next year because of various fiscal=20 problems, and may be forced to shrink the work force and reduce some=20 bus routes. Some analysts say fares will probably rise again in 2010. The Depfa fallout doesn't end there. Rating agencies have downgraded=20 the bonds of more than 75 municipal agencies backed by Depfa,=20 including in California, Connecticut, Illinois and South Dakota.=20 Officials in Florida, Massachusetts and Montana have cut budgets=20 because of C.D.O.'s or similar risky bets. And Hypo, the German company that bought Depfa, last week asked the=20 German government for financial help for the third time. Depfa has=20 frozen much of its business, according to Wall Street bankers, and=20 though it continues to honor its commitments, some wonder for how long. The Wisconsin school districts have filed suit against the Royal Bank=20 of Canada and Stifel Nicolaus alleging misrepresentations. Board=20 members hope they will prevail and schools and retirement plans will=20 emerge unscathed. The companies dispute the lawsuit's claims. Mr.=20 Noack is not named as a defendant and is cooperating with the school boar= ds. In Mrs. Velvikis's classroom at Grewenow Elementary in Kenosha,=20 students have recently completed a lesson in which each first grader=20 contributed a vegetable to a common vat of "stone soup." The project=20 =97 based on a children's book =97 teaches the benefits of working=20 together. The schools have learned that when everyone works together,=20 they can also all starve. "Our funding is already so limited," Mrs. Velvikis said. "We rely on=20 parent donations for some supplies. You hear about all these millions=20 of dollars that have been lost, and you think, that's got to come out=20 of somewhere." From lnp3@panix.com Sun Nov 02 06:59:53 2008 Received: from mail2.panix.com ([166.84.1.73]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwdUf-0002Nf-3E for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 06:59:53 -0700 Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFE6D34812 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 08:59:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from louis.panix.com (cpe-66-108-163-221.nyc.res.rr.com [66.108.163.221]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B209DD493 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 08:59:52 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 08:59:49 -0500 To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition From: Louis Proyect In-Reply-To: <2D1B5B8129354706BABB3356197056D1@office1pc> References: <2D1B5B8129354706BABB3356197056D1@office1pc> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Message-Id: <20081102135952.B209DD493@mailbackend.panix.com> Subject: Re: [Marxism] What does this election signify? X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 13:59:53 -0000 Fred Feldman wrote: >I also have said that I think the election of Obama is preferable not on a >"lesser evil" basis but as reflection of new setbacks to racism, and of >changing moods somewhat more in our direction in broad strata of youth and >working people. This is what I would call passive voice politics. From walterlx@earthlink.net Sun Nov 02 07:08:35 2008 Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.62]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Kwdd5-0002Oj-Fo for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 07:08:35 -0700 Received: from [209.86.224.40] (helo=elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Kwdcz-0007b8-GG for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 09:08:29 -0500 Received: from 216.175.74.67 by webmail.earthlink.net with HTTP; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 09:08:29 -0500 Message-ID: <8356648.1225634909258.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 09:08:29 -0500 (EST) From: Walter Lippmann To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 584b452a2df9bf4e1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79ea9162666b36aef252fa2d3adcb7995b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.40 Subject: Re: [Marxism] How did we get suckered into this? X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 14:08:35 -0000 So many people think they can get something for nothing. They think they can go to a gambling casino and somehow be more "lucky" than someone else, even if they know -=20 "rationally" - that the deck is stacked against them,=20 the idea that one can win something for nothing is one deeply rooted in U.S. culture. Lots of this is based on thinking individually instead of socially and societally. It's still going to be a long time before the people of the United States will learn to think socially, to act politically, and to see themselves as part of something broader than each against all, and blaming other people (immigrants, gays, blacks, welfare-recipients, and etc.), rather than finding ways to unite WITH other people in common movements and struggles to make things better. Walter Lippmann Los Angeles, California =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D WALTER LIPPMANN Los Angeles, California Editor-in-Chief, CubaNews http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaNews/ "Cuba - Un Para=C3=ADso bajo el bloqueo" =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From ffeldman@bellatlantic.net Sun Nov 02 07:11:13 2008 Received: from vms173005pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.5]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Kwdfd-0002P9-22 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 07:11:13 -0700 Received: from office1pc ([138.89.80.188]) by vms173005.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0K9P00HYAM2I8RT4@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 08:11:07 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 09:11:21 -0500 From: "Fred Feldman" To: , Message-id: <57F8B86BF1894584A40482FF0CD97189@office1pc> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thread-index: Ack89HXS6NA4ZSORRluaKDjVHErC3w== Subject: Re: [Marxism] what does this election signify? X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 14:11:13 -0000 Walter Lippmann wrote: If Obama is elected, and can't be assume by now, it would resolve the question of whether or not a Black person could be elected president of the United States of America, quite a matter indeed, and a hell of a lot more than "nothing". Fred comments: Walter is right, as is often the case. I should have said "nothing else" but that. And settling that in favor of democracy will actually put the working and oppressed people in a stronger position to stand up for our interests in whatever comes down the line, no matter what Obama does at present. Just trying to position for the future. I still think Bozefsky was right in that whoever wins (and I think it will be Obama, if majority rule is even minimally respected), the oppressed and exploited of this country will have to fight to defend their interests against the system that both Obama and McCain represent. It was his comment (plus a little concern about Dave McDonald's, though he has a perfect right to act as his conscience and judgment dictate in the voting) that led me to try to formulate my view more precisely. It is, of course, mine alone. If Obama continues on the course of escalating Afghanistan and Pakistan, and hostility toward Venezuela and Bolivia that he has followed so far, the changed "image" for the United States won't go very far. Words and appearances (including a Black man in the White House) will have to be backed by deeds if hostility to the US regime is to be ameliorated for long. And I see no sign yet that those kinds of deeds are in the offing. These facts have played a part all along in my backing of McKinney. The Cuban leaders, who clearly also prefer Obama, are right to warn people not to expect much from him, and, in fact, to prepare for continued problems and rely on their own strength to contain or defeat them. I fear that is the best advice to the oppressed and exploited, including the Black nationality which is justifiably excited and mobilized for completing the task they undertook when Obama became a serious candidate. Fred Feldman From ssschwartz8@gmail.com Sun Nov 02 07:52:23 2008 Received: from mu-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.134.185]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KweJS-0002SK-Ni for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 07:52:23 -0700 Received: by mu-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id w1so2168223mue.9 for ; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 06:52:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.103.24.11 with SMTP id b11mr6571711muj.98.1225637528952; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 06:52:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.103.213.2 with HTTP; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 06:52:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <685ad9b30811020652xa78ba62k9cb0b9a6e7d4980a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:52:08 +0200 From: "yossi schwartz" To: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Subject: [Marxism] Last minute stab by rightist Dobson against Obama X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 14:52:23 -0000 Louis Trotsky did not know Bush, according to your method it is possible Trotsky would not oppose him as the president of an imperialist state. I have argued many times with reformists who always try the same sticky trick. You point to them the elementary positions of revolutionary Marxism. For example the class nature of a state, by quoting from State and revolution. Their reply is always the same: It was true when Lenin wrote it. The same is true about imperialist parties. Pro imperialist positions are pro imperialist positions in the 1920- 1930s , or today. Try to build a working class international with your method. Supporting imperialist parties that in power oppress the masses in third world countries. From david@miradoiro.com Sun Nov 02 07:54:37 2008 Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com ([72.14.220.155]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KweLd-0002TG-1c for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 07:54:37 -0700 Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id l26so1888560fgb.45 for ; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 06:54:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.181.204.4 with SMTP id g4mr3313357bkq.151.1225637674802; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 06:54:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from Nautilus ([213.60.77.52]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y15sm7624285fkd.17.2008.11.02.06.54.33 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 02 Nov 2008 06:54:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <51412B050B294D439FBE4F6477EA0AA3@Nautilus> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?David_Pic=F3n_=C1lvarez?= To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" References: <20081102135800.61D35D236@mailbackend.panix.com> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 15:54:25 +0100 Organization: Miradoiro MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Marxism] How did we get suckered into this? X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 14:54:37 -0000 Personally what I find the most surprising here is the level of autonomy that lets individual schools play this dangerous game. Here (Spain) schools depend on the ministry of education, and while they have certain level of functional autonomy, things like pay and hiring of teachers, and the like, are centralized. I am not quite sure what the advantage is in having individual schools pretending to be profit-maximizers. --David. From lnp3@panix.com Sun Nov 02 08:02:29 2008 Received: from mail2.panix.com ([166.84.1.73]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KweTF-0002W6-Q9 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 08:02:29 -0700 Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E8E634811 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 10:02:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from louis.panix.com (cpe-66-108-163-221.nyc.res.rr.com [66.108.163.221]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B070DA31 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 10:02:29 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 10:02:25 -0500 To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition From: Louis Proyect In-Reply-To: <685ad9b30811020652xa78ba62k9cb0b9a6e7d4980a@mail.gmail.com > References: <685ad9b30811020652xa78ba62k9cb0b9a6e7d4980a@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Message-Id: <20081102150229.0B070DA31@mailbackend.panix.com> Subject: Re: [Marxism] Last minute stab by rightist Dobson against Obama X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 15:02:30 -0000 >Louis > > >Trotsky did not know Bush, according to your method it is possible Trotsky >would not oppose him as the president of an imperialist state. I didn't advocate a vote for Bush. I advocated a vote for Ralph Nader. >I have argued many times with reformists who always try the same >sticky trick. You >point to them the elementary positions of revolutionary Marxism. Are you calling me a reformist? Is advocating a vote for Nader reformist? From sartesian@earthlink.net Sun Nov 02 08:09:13 2008 Received: from elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.66]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KweZk-0002Y6-UL for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 08:09:13 -0700 Received: from [69.86.1.8] (helo=dmsthinkpad) by elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KweZf-0005BM-33 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 10:09:07 -0500 Message-ID: <693DE47BCA16449EA27E5C5ADC8D9C78@dmsthinkpad> From: "S. Artesian" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" References: <022f01c93ca4$c4206410$6600a8c0@D4PKYZ41><20081102093304.44A5E2D7A8@heartbeat2.messagingengine.com> <2D8D2DA76BE9431794782C893A60A0E2@dmsthinkpad> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 10:09:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-ELNK-Trace: cb12c76ec1f5bb3a85338a7d01cb3b6a7e972de0d01da940cdb51dec4829e91e8241dff30cb73b1f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.86.1.8 Subject: [Marxism] Federal Reserve Statistical Supplement X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 15:09:13 -0000 Available at: http://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/supplement/2008/10/default.htm From ffeldman@bellatlantic.net Sun Nov 02 08:24:04 2008 Received: from vms173001pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.1]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Kweo8-0002Ze-D0 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 08:24:04 -0700 Received: from office1pc ([138.89.80.188]) by vms173001.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0K9P00ADWPFOTIRG@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 09:23:49 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 10:24:04 -0500 From: "Fred Feldman" To: Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thread-index: Ack8/s+Ib79fqAZ3Rsu1LwPCenZhnQ== Subject: Re: [Marxism] Last minute stab by rightist Dobson against Obama X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 15:24:04 -0000 Yossi wrote: I have argued many times with reformists who always try the same sticky trick. You point to them the elementary positions of revolutionary Marxism. Louis responded: Are you calling me a reformist? Is advocating a vote for Nader reformist? Fred comments: Yossi, as your attorney, I urge you not to answer these questions. In fact, I urge you to contribute no further to the elections debate and shift to other threads, where you can participate without getting thrown off the list for violating the list rules on civil exchange. Your opinions have been expressed clearly and everyone has understood them. Move on now. From lnp3@panix.com Sun Nov 02 08:41:00 2008 Received: from mail2.panix.com ([166.84.1.73]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Kwf4V-0002c8-UX for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 08:41:00 -0700 Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75E9334808 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 10:40:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from louis.panix.com (cpe-66-108-163-221.nyc.res.rr.com [66.108.163.221]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48C51D5C1 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 10:40:58 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 10:40:55 -0500 To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition From: Louis Proyect In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Message-Id: <20081102154058.48C51D5C1@mailbackend.panix.com> Subject: Re: [Marxism] Last minute stab by rightist Dobson against Obama X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 15:41:00 -0000 >Fred comments: >Yossi, as your attorney, I urge you not to answer these questions. > >In fact, I urge you to contribute no further to the elections debate and >shift to other threads, where you can participate without getting thrown off >the list for violating the list rules on civil exchange. > >Your opinions have been expressed clearly and everyone has understood them. >Move on now. For new subscribers puzzled by this, let me clarify. This is from the subscription page of www.marxmail.org: >>MODERATION PRINCIPLES: The Marxism mailing list is extremely permissive. There are a couple of things that are frowned upon strongly. If you come to the list with the attitude that you are a true Bolshevik, who needs to convert 'Mensheviks' to your beliefs, you will be unsubbed. Members of self-declared vanguard parties who can adjust to the tolerant atmosphere of the list are more than welcome, since they usually bring with them years of Marxist study and political experience. We also welcome non-Marxists who come to the list in a respectful attitude, desiring to learn more. However, if you have decided for yourself that Marxism is wrong and that your purpose on the list is to struggle to convince others of that, you should not subscribe. The Internet has many forums where Marxists and anti-Marxists can debate. This is not one of them.<< Yossi has violated these instructions numerous times and I have overlooked it. But he should follow Fred's advice and not make a habit out of Menshevik hunting. From farmelantj@juno.com Sun Nov 02 09:04:57 2008 Received: from outbound-jn.vgs.untd.com ([64.136.55.20]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwfRh-0002eV-F2 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 09:04:57 -0700 X-UOL-TAGLINE: true Received: from outbound-jn.vgs.untd.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by m03.vgs.untd.com with SMTP id AABES5V6GAJT6N8A for (sender ); Sun, 2 Nov 2008 08:04:22 -0800 (PDT) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: 0yMx0kAy+LlRzQAW/WOzLpZ6rfebdHhaIg2kC/oOkdBiD+ungPbr5A== Received: (from farmelantj@juno.com) by m03.vgs.untd.com (jqueuemail) id NYZM7AJ5; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 08:03:37 PST To: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:03:05 -0500 Message-ID: <20081102.110306.3172.0.farmelantj@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.49 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-58 From: Jim Farmelant X-ContentStamp: 22:11:1297266077 X-MAIL-INFO: 0c6871ec45014529fc2d8d791dbd910121b858412ca581394885f905 X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 127.0.0.1|localhost|outbound-jn.vgs.untd.com|farmelantj@juno.com Subject: Re: [Marxism] If you want to identify the ruling class, you have to decide what is a social class. X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 16:04:57 -0000 On Sat, 1 Nov 2008 21:37:50 -0700 "johnaimani" writes: > Ask any 'Marxist' how is it that class is determined and she/he will > no doubt aver "Class is determined by ones relationship to the means > of production". Ask them what that means and they can't tell you. > These is a scientific analysis of class and that is that class is > determined by the value-composition of the product one sells. > > The constituents of value are c + v + s. > > Now c + v, in the hands of the capitalist, equal C (for Capital that > can be used to purchase constant (c) and varariable (v) capitals). > > And v + s, when controlled by the worker, equal l (for the full > value of the labor of the worker.). > > We are then led to this formulation of the classes: > > Working Classes > > Wage-worker - v (the wage worker has only hir's labor-power (v) > to sell) > > Independent worker - c + l (the IW must have hir's own means of > production (c) and owns the full value of hir's labor (l) > > Petit-Bourgeois - (c + l) + (v + s) (the PB owns the constant > capital hir uses (c) and hir's own labor (l) + purchase the > labor-power of hir's workers (v) and owns the surplus > produced by the worker (s)) > Where do so-called "unproductive" workers fit in this scheme (for example retail workers, workers in finance, advertising etc? As I understand it, their labor does not add to the value produced, so they are in effect paid out of surplus value. But they are certainly not capitalists. > Capitalist Classes > > Petit-Bourgeois - (c + l) + (v + s) (the PB owns the constant > capital hir uses (c) and hir's own labor (l) + purchase the > labor-power of hir's workers (v) and owns the > surplus produced by the worker (s)) > > Capitalist - C > > Industrial - (Cp) where p stands for enterprise profit > Rent - (Cg) where g stands for ground-rent > Financial - (Ci) where i stands for interest > > It will be noted above that the PB lies in both classes, or rather > is a hybrid of both classes. This is so because hir's own labor (l) > is necessary to maintain hir (i.e. hir can neither maintain hir's > position solely by hir's own work (in that case hir would be an IW); > nor can hir maintain that position solely by exploiting wage-labor > (in that case hir would be a capitalist). >> ____________________________________________________________ Are you safe? Click for quotes on a home security system. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3ni3cplg4jppllcH8wgdhQPmnkTzq9prcChFci1FO3Sypiaj/ From Dbachmozart@aol.com Sun Nov 02 09:19:32 2008 Received: from imo-m25.mx.aol.com ([64.12.137.6]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Kwffo-0002fa-DJ for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 09:19:32 -0700 Received: from Dbachmozart@aol.com by imo-m25.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v39.1.) id w.cb0.304340aa (30739) for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:19:22 -0500 (EST) From: Dbachmozart@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:19:21 EST To: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5377 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Subject: [Marxism] The single worst expression in American politics X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 16:19:32 -0000 Glenn Greenwald - Sunday Nov. 2, 2008 06:54 EST clip -- Joe Biden, _speaking yesterday_ (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/10/biden-come-tues.html) at a rally in Ohio (h/t _Jonathan Schwarz_ (http://www.tinyrevolution.com/mt/archives/002669.html) ): Over the past week, Republicans have gone way over the top in my view, calling Barack Obama every name in the book, and it probably will get worse in the next three and a half to four days . . . . After next Tuesday, the very critics he has now and the rest of America will be calling him something else - they will be calling him the 44th president of the United States of America, our commander in chief Barack Obama! As I _wrote a couple of weeks ago_ (http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/10/17/mccain/) (see the last few paragraphs): if I could be granted one small political wish, it would be the permanent elimination of this _widespread_ (http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2007/01/public-servant-v-military-commander.html) , execrable Orwellian fetish of reverently referring to the President as "our commander in chief." And Biden's formulation here is a particularly creepy rendition, since he's taunting opponents of Obama that, come Tuesday, they will be forced to refer to him as "our commander in chief Barack Obama" (Sarah Palin, in the _very first speech she delivered_ (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=94118910) after being unveiled as the Vice Presidential candidate, said of John McCain: "that's the kind of man I want as our commander in chief," and she's been delivering that same line in her stump speech ever since). This is much more than a semantic irritant. It's a perversion of the Constitution, under which American civilians simply do not have a "commander in chief"; only those in the military -- when it's called into service -- have one (_Art. II, Sec. 2_ (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/article02/) ). full -- <_http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/11/02/biden/index.html_ (http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/11/02/biden/index.html) > **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212416248x1200771803/aol?redir=http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001) From markalause@gmail.com Sun Nov 02 09:45:32 2008 Received: from ik-out-1112.google.com ([66.249.90.183]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Kwg4y-0002gc-0x for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 09:45:32 -0700 Received: by ik-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id c30so1431213ika.7 for ; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 08:45:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.210.29.11 with SMTP id c11mr7576408ebc.53.1225644329431; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 08:45:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.210.86.18 with HTTP; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 08:45:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:45:29 -0500 From: "Mark Lause" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" In-Reply-To: <1225630039.5203.6.camel@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1225630039.5203.6.camel@localhost> Subject: Re: [Marxism] US Elections And Effective Strategies X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 16:45:32 -0000 I gave serious consideration to McKinney early on, depending on how that campaign would shape up, but have gone strongly for Nader. In a nutshell.... 1. Nader is well within the range of supportable politics in terms of what he advocates. Most of what he says is on the money in terms of class politics, while he advocates absolutely nothing beyond the pale of our principles. On this basis, many of us supported his earlier efforts and I don't think anything's changed. 2. As to the scale of the impact, Nader-Gonzales is far beyond what any of the other third party and independent candidates can do. Setting aside those that seem to have no reason to run for president other than to boost the profile of their particular group (or, to be fair, use the magic word "socialism"), you have left Nader and McKinney. Simply put, the former's mounted an organized, coherent, serious national campaign that's established organizations in all but a few states. 3. The Nader campaign is also most likely to leave much more in its wake. McKinney's own Power to the People coalition doesn't seem to be much more than a name, while the GPUS, running McKinney, has imploded by stages to where many of the state organizations are simply run by Progressive Democrats; as predicted, the state officers so eager to foster the McKinney nomination in Ohio are now openly defending Obama and the entire Democratic ticket. Meanwhile, the Reconstruction Party, friendly to McKinney, declined to launch itself nationally while Obama was running and the Peace and Freedom Party of California (having endorsed Nader) did decide to go national in the course of the campaign. We are not talking about establish yet another nominal "third party" but laying the foundations for such a movement in establishing serious, independent watchdog organizations in the states and Congressional districts. Not chat shops but organizations engaged directly with larger numbers of people than radicals have mobilized in a generation. In this economic climate, such ongoing efforts have tremendous potential. ML From markalause@gmail.com Sun Nov 02 09:48:39 2008 Received: from ey-out-2122.google.com ([74.125.78.27]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Kwg7z-0002gv-3n for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 09:48:39 -0700 Received: by ey-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 25so692221eya.17 for ; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 08:48:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.210.127.13 with SMTP id z13mr7430235ebc.11.1225644515731; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 08:48:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.210.86.18 with HTTP; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 08:48:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:48:35 -0500 From: "Mark Lause" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" In-Reply-To: <20081102131213.BA488D6BC@mailbackend.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <685ad9b30811012330y76b26db9n675f892c474cdd26@mail.gmail.com> <20081102131213.BA488D6BC@mailbackend.panix.com> Subject: Re: [Marxism] Last minute stab by rightist Dobson against Obama X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 16:48:39 -0000 It wasn't Trotsky that said anything but Nostratrotsky who prophecized everything. Ml From dave.walters@comcast.net Sun Nov 02 10:48:55 2008 Received: from qmta02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.24]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Kwh4I-0002nE-VN for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 10:48:55 -0700 Received: from OMTA13.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.52]) by QMTA02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id aFND1a00K17UAYkA2HooCj; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 17:48:48 +0000 Received: from c-98-210-137-164.hsd1.ca.comcast.net ([98.210.137.164]) by OMTA13.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id aHon1a00C3Z04Mu8ZHooCw; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 17:48:48 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=gzv2mk1f3hUA:10 a=sZ4XJOVDz0kA:10 a=rITDv7nW5hcA:10 a=J0iMUMySYg7RolCQ5sYA:9 a=vutyiffo-W6ojmXn1bcA:7 a=V7jQcyJnJiPON8S3dWlKhBwcoKoA:4 a=BcKeTrsrUDYA:10 Message-ID: <490DE7FF.2040006@comcast.net> Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 09:48:47 -0800 From: David Walters User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Macintosh/20080914) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Marxism] How did we get suckered into this? X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 17:48:55 -0000 Picon wrote: "Personally what I find the most surprising here is the level of autonomy that lets individual schools play this dangerous game. Here (Spain) schools depend on the ministry of education, and while they have certain level of functional autonomy, things like pay and hiring of teachers, and the like, are centralized." A lot of people find this surprising. In fact, I'm surprised this doesn't come up in conversation more. The US is organized, if compared to a typical non-North American state, as a "Confederation". Schools: There are over 36,000 autonomous school boards in the US. They are regulated, at most, by the 50 States legislatures and depts of education in those states. Some states, Texas most notably, has something approaching a 'centralized' scheme for education when it comes to financing and curriculum. All moves in the recent past to centralize this comes from the right-wing seeking to impose socially conservative mandates from the Federal gov't like the "No child left behind" act. States: Each state has it's own set of tax laws and can, and often do, impose things like a 'state income tax'. All property taxes, additionally, are determined at the state level. Some states grant counties their own methods of taxation so that if you drive from one county to another you have different rates of sales tax (limited by each state but often given county autonomy on how high or low it can go). States also determine things like highway speed limits, environmental limits that can be placed over Federal regulations, etc etc. The existence of the States comes out of the original compact of the 13 original colonies under the British. View originally, kind of, as separate nations, this form of confederation was carried up to this day. It skews, highly the concept of democracy in the bourgeois state in the US because States are given an inordinate amount of power *within* the Federal gov't. Up until the early 20th Century, in fact, Senators (two from each state) were *appointed* by the Governor of that state or the State legislature. States get two Sentator *regardless* of their size. It is truly insane. Alaska has a population LESS than the city of San Francisco where I live. California itself has 38,000,000 people!!!! But we both get "Two Senators". This comes from the confederal idea that we are a "nation of states, not of people". I have noted here in the past that a progressive demand would be the outright elimination of the Senate from the US Constitution or election of a "Senate" based on 1 Senator to, say, 12 Senators, based on an averaging from the state with the smallest population (Wyoming in this case, with only 500,000 residents). David From markalause@gmail.com Sun Nov 02 11:21:57 2008 Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.186]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwhaH-0002pU-IC for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 11:21:57 -0700 Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id e27so1060761nfd.9 for ; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 10:21:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.210.45.17 with SMTP id s17mr16507507ebs.168.1225650114941; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 10:21:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.210.86.18 with HTTP; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 10:21:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 13:21:54 -0500 From: "Mark Lause" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" In-Reply-To: <490DE7FF.2040006@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <490DE7FF.2040006@comcast.net> Subject: Re: [Marxism] How did we get suckered into this? X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 18:21:57 -0000 To clarify this description of school boards as autonomous, I would suggest that they are really about as autonomous as centralized standards permit. For example, a school board that would permit a book in the school library or a course or a teacher objectionable to the reactionaries might well find itself facing a ruthless and ongoing onslaught from above. A friend of mine was on a local school board that had Kurt Vonnegut's books in the school library and a relentless right wing attempt to remove them. The reactionaries argued for autonomy when it suited them, but, when the board decided against them, went at the problem through the state authorities. In the end, they simply went into the school library and removed them without the fig leaf of any legality. What I'm suggesting here is that the problem is fundamentally political rather than institutional. ML From hunterbadbear@hunterbear.org Sun Nov 02 11:48:47 2008 Received: from omr5.networksolutionsemail.com ([205.178.146.55]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Kwi0F-0002rc-7L for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 11:48:47 -0700 Received: from mail.networksolutionsemail.com (ns-omr5.mgt.netsol.com [10.49.6.68]) by omr5.networksolutionsemail.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id mA2ImjOC009313 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 13:48:45 -0500 Received: (qmail 15820 invoked by uid 78); 2 Nov 2008 18:48:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO computer) (hunterbadbear@hunterbear.org@75.174.14.198) by ns-omr5.lb.hosting.dc2.netsol.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2008 18:48:44 -0000 Message-ID: <002101c93d1b$a31c1df0$0400a8c0@computer> From: "Hunter Gray" To: , "marxism" Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:48:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Subject: [Marxism] Don't forget Lupus in the voting booth X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 18:48:47 -0000 NOTE BY HUNTER BEAR: 11/02/08 [Lupus has a preference for both men and women in certain "minority" = categories -- Native, Chicano, Black -- and for Anglo women. Doesn't = seem to care much for Anglo men.] =20 A lady near us -- an ISU professor who recently moved into the = neighborhood and who often takes Maria to St Joseph's Catholic Church -- = has just called, unable to drive this morning. Although they are still = testing her, it is likely she has Lupus. Down the road a short piece = lives another very good neighbor, a young woman, LDS, close to Josie's = age, who has been battling Lupus for years. [Unusual to have three cases = of this close by in unrelated people.] I can only say that, in addition = to all of the other reasons to vote Democratic, there is the fact that = research monies into these relatively rare "orphan diseases" and other = serious threats should increase substantially. At the very least, = critical stem cell research should be greatly facilitated. Lupus is, of = course, politically non-partisan: I understand that [Utah] Republican = Senator Robert Bennett's daughter has it. He's been active in the Cause, = supports the Utah/Idaho chaper of Lupus Foundation of America, to which = we belong. H. >From Helen today, a Native lady in North Carolina with Systemic Lupus = and a niece who is near death with the same illness. My response = follows. hunter, hope both of you are well ,i haven't been well at all came home friday = from a five day stay at the hospital ,bleeding internal, and a very high = blood pressure,i do so wish this would go away for a very long time, = crissy is so very sick , she has more surgery scheduled nov. 14th.let me = know how you're doing. helen=20 >From Hunter: Dear Helen: You've been on my mind -- especially so these past several days. If you = hadn't written, I would have within the next two days or so. Well -- and I've quoted this Lupus friend of mine at least once to you = -- "If it isn't one thing, it's another." The past several weeks have = not been at all good for me. Somewhat undependable legs and feet, much = fatigue. We are very sorry to learn of your problems -- and certainly = those of Crissy. We certainly convey our very best thoughts and prayers = to all of you. We get a number of Lupus publications -- and I have yet to find any sign = of any really new, effective medicines. A couple of the publications = insist on displaying smiling faces of Lupus folks on the covers -- but I = can see little to smile about. Our family, like yours, is a major support force. And I have a great = Kitty who sticks with me at virtually every moment. Coffee and my = tobacco pipe are great aids. Our youngest, Josie, is due to have her first child next May. That will = be our ninth grandchild. Our grandson/son Thomas will be an M.D. come = next May -- he's finishing his fourth year of Med School at Minnesota. = He's always interested in the Lupus situation, keeps us posted on things = in that medical area. But, as I say, we all are still waiting for a = truly helpful medicine. The more grandchildren, the better! In the meantime, we can only Keep Fighting. You all are doing a fine job = on that front -- all Lupus things considered -- and I think we are, too. We are cut from good "material" but I know, Helen, that it's tough. Only = someone with Lupus knows how it is. We send all our love to you all -- and, as always, our best prayers and = our best thoughts. Your good friend, always -- Hunter [Hunter Bear] HUNTER GRAY [HUNTER BEAR/JOHN R SALTER JR] Mi'kmaq /St. Francis Abenaki/St. Regis Mohawk Protected by Na=B4shdo=B4i=B4ba=B4i=B4 and Ohkwari' Check out our Hunterbear website Directory = http://hunterbear.org/directory.htm [The site is dedicated to our one-half Bobcat, Cloudy Gray: http://hunterbear.org/cloudy_gray.htm See our Community Organizing Course [With new material] http://hunterbear.org/my_combined_community_organizing.htm And see Hunter's Movement Life Interview: http://hunterbear.org/HUNTER%20BEAR%20INTERVIEW%20CRMV.htm From lnp3@panix.com Sun Nov 02 12:01:34 2008 Received: from mail2.panix.com ([166.84.1.73]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwiCc-0002tH-RE for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 12:01:34 -0700 Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F3CD34817 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 14:01:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from louis.panix.com (cpe-66-108-163-221.nyc.res.rr.com [66.108.163.221]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAA4DD654 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 14:01:33 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 14:01:30 -0500 To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition From: Louis Proyect Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Message-Id: <20081102190133.EAA4DD654@mailbackend.panix.com> Subject: [Marxism] Loren Goldner on the crisis X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 19:01:35 -0000 Goldner, by his own admission, is an ultraleftist in the classical Bordigist mode but his economic analysis is always useful: http://home.earthlink.net/~lrgoldner/october.html From cbcox@ilstu.edu Sun Nov 02 12:16:14 2008 Received: from smtp2.ilstu.edu ([138.87.124.35] helo=smtp.ilstu.edu) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwiQo-0002v6-0Z for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 12:16:14 -0700 Received: from ilstu.edu (unknown [10.102.5.124]) by smtp.ilstu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B8BF6C59 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 13:16:08 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <490DFC76.29D016B0@ilstu.edu> Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 13:16:06 -0600 From: Carrol Cox X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition References: <490DE7FF.2040006@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Marxism] How did we get suckered into this? X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 19:16:14 -0000 Mark Lause wrote: > > > What I'm suggesting here is that the problem is fundamentally > political rather than institutional. Mark is "fundamentally" (his word) correct, of course. But as Mark probably knows in more detail than any of us, the whole U.S. system is constructed to distribute political activity in various fractured domains. The example he gives depends (a) on the nominal (and usual) autonomy of local boards, the actual centering of authority in the States (which existe independently while local areas are (nominally) creations of the state, except when the state constitution itself ...... It's a fucking jungle institutionally. Carrol From cbcox@ilstu.edu Sun Nov 02 12:25:07 2008 Received: from smtp2.ilstu.edu ([138.87.124.35] helo=smtp.ilstu.edu) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwiZP-0002wq-2A for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 12:25:07 -0700 Received: from ilstu.edu (unknown [10.102.5.124]) by smtp.ilstu.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACBDB6C67 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 13:25:01 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <490DFE91.8732B05F@ilstu.edu> Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 13:25:05 -0600 From: Carrol Cox X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition References: <20081102190133.EAA4DD654@mailbackend.panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Marxism] Loren Goldner on the crisis X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 19:25:07 -0000 Louis Proyect wrote: > > Goldner, by his own admission, is an ultraleftist in the classical > Bordigist mode "Classical Bordigist mode" is not all that clear a designation for me at least. And in any case, I don't think such a (classical) mode exists! Ultra-leftism can appear in almost any number of guises. I myself prefer to describe Ultra-Leftism (or Left Opportunism) as any political practice that is grounded in an overestimation of the strength of capital, an underestimation of the strength of the working class. It is quite apt to take organizational and/or cultural forms. One 'classical' form is the belief that any political development of individuals that takes place 'outside' the careful guidance of a vanguard party will inevitably be right opportunist (reformist). That, I have always assumed, was what was behind the "Single Issue" line of the SWP in the anti-war effort, which remains for me the "classical" form of ultra-leftism. The assumption was that in a ulti-issue movement a wide variety of political perspectives would develop outside the 'reach' of the party, and because of the enormous power of capitalist ideology all those developments would be forms of petty-bourgeois opportunism. On the other hand, a single-issue movement would not give room for such independent political thought, and all development beyond the single issue would tak placee under the careful guidance of the One True Party. Carrol From johnaimani@earthlink.net Sun Nov 02 13:15:15 2008 Received: from elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.68]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwjLv-00031X-BL for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 13:15:15 -0700 Received: from [76.90.206.255] (helo=D4PKYZ41) by elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwjLp-0004yR-9O for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 15:15:09 -0500 Message-ID: <027f01c93d27$a9fcddb0$6600a8c0@D4PKYZ41> From: "johnaimani" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 12:14:51 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-ELNK-Trace: 05b11856b2307c61049c4b108d802a73239a348a220c260954deb5e717128bd7a6a63b70551c549a387f7b89c61deb1d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 76.90.206.255 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Subject: [Marxism] Subject: Re: If you want to identify the ruling class, you have to decide what is a social class. X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 20:15:15 -0000 < Subject: Re: [Marxism] If you want to identify the ruling class, you have to decide what is a social class. Where do so-called "unproductive" workers fit in this scheme (for example retail workers, workers in finance, advertising etc? As I understand it, their labor does not add to the value produced, so they are in effect paid out of surplus value. But they are certainly not capitalists.>> Depends. As a rule they are wage workers who sell their labor-power=20 for 'v' as with any other wage worker. They may however be independant contractors who fashion a product (sold into this sector) using their = own means=20 of production and their own labor (in which case they would be = "independent workers")=20 and/or the labor(s) of others alongside their own labor (in which case = they=20 would be 'petit-bourgeois'. The fact that they work within "unproductive' sectors has nothing = whatsoever=20 to do with where they fit into the class spectrum. And, though their = labor makes no contribution to thesocial wealth, they are indeed "paid out of = surplus-value"=20 as capitalists, rent-receivers and finaciers. They are paid=20 by deductions from the surplus-value pool created by the labor of = workers in the productive sectors.=20 JAI From sartesian@earthlink.net Sun Nov 02 13:19:12 2008 Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.62]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwjPk-00032f-8O for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 13:19:12 -0700 Received: from [69.86.1.8] (helo=dmsthinkpad) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwjPe-0001Xu-6X for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 15:19:06 -0500 Message-ID: <877EBA44651547E3AD1170379859AD5D@dmsthinkpad> From: "S. Artesian" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" References: <20081102190133.EAA4DD654@mailbackend.panix.com> <490DFE91.8732B05F@ilstu.edu> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 15:19:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-ELNK-Trace: cb12c76ec1f5bb3a85338a7d01cb3b6a7e972de0d01da940df9b6d9af4227429427d179c0225b2ea350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.86.1.8 Subject: Re: [Marxism] Loren Goldner on the crisis X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 20:19:12 -0000 None of that applies to Bordiga. "Bordigaism" is generally characterized as eschewing all electoral and parliamentary efforts and agitation; as rejecting the united front as a viable tactic within the class. It is also associated, although these links are more sympathetc, IMO, than concrete, with council communism. Unlike Gramsci, who led the nominal Stalinist wing of the PCI, Bordiga defended Trotsky, and is reported to have called Stalin "gravedigger of the revolution" to his face. Talk about cojones. Bordiga analyzed the USSR, after the triumph of Stalin, as capitalist. And none of Carrol's description applies to Goldner, with whom I have had extensive exchanges. His analysis is based on an argument that capital "peaked" as a social system, i.e. able to reproduce a social capital, a 'developmental' social organization, in 1968, and that since that point, capitalism has kept itself afloat by functioning essentially as one big bubble, or a series of consecutive, and linked, bubbles. Since then, the accumulation of capital has required social retrogression. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carrol Cox" To: Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 2:25 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] Loren Goldner on the crisis From schaffer@optonline.net Sun Nov 02 13:58:01 2008 Received: from mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net ([167.206.4.196]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Kwk1J-00035I-6F for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 13:58:01 -0700 Received: from BNW113-C0186M.local (ool-182c8813.dyn.optonline.net [24.44.136.19]) by mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0K9Q00AK74WFBBU0@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 15:57:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 15:57:48 -0500 From: Les Schaffer To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition Message-id: <490E144C.9060506@optonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Macintosh/20080914) Subject: [Marxism] (fwd) Film recommendation for Marxmailers X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 20:58:01 -0000 [ forwarded for a marxmailer lurker ] Subject: 11/04, 1:00 pm, NYC, Brilliant Wajda film on nationalities= =20 (Germans, Poles, Jews), industrial rev, etc in Lodz ca. 1895 OK, the scheduling is inconvenient, but the film =96 The Promised Lan= d --=20 is extraordinary. Polish director Andrzej Wajda (remember =91Man of I= ron,=92=20 =91=85 Marble,=92 even better =91Ashes and Diamonds=92) brings his po= litical and=20 artistic sensibilities to capitalist dealings at the turn of the last= =20 century in a costume drama, sui generis. Definitely timely, as =91our= =92 big=20 fish work out their feeding strategies . See filmlinc.com for details= .=20 (Note film is 168 min long, and there is a punch line at the end you= =20 won=92t want to miss, so develop your story for the boss accordingly,= =20 e..g., participating in electoral cretinism.) From russo.matthew9@gmail.com Sun Nov 02 14:17:09 2008 Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com ([74.125.46.29]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwkJo-00036r-PC for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 14:17:09 -0700 Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 9so880540ywe.29 for ; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 13:17:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.150.92.13 with SMTP id p13mr8379875ybb.246.1225660627622; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 13:17:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.150.150.15 with HTTP; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 13:17:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1b7033e60811021317m1d92a5f2tb90676f325fd3b76@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 13:17:07 -0800 From: "Matthew Russo" To: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Subject: Re: [Marxism] What does this election signify? X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 21:17:09 -0000 ? wrote: >It would be nice if there were decent protest votes for >McKinney and Nader in other places, though not enough to >prevent Obama from willing, and thus cause liberals after >the election to blame McKinney or Nader for their loss as >they did in 2000. With the active voice left to Democratic Party liberal/progressive displeasure at any attempt to focus and lead these changing moods in an independent political direction, but couched again in the "passive-causative" in order to disguise the many actions of the Democrats to squelch any possibility of independent left activity that may threaten their political monopoly. The Democrats have always been militantly proactive in this regard. In reality "blame" has already been allocated beforehand, it is not "caused" by the independent left. In this manner also, blame is deflected from the Democrats onto independent leftists. But it is the exclusive responsibility of the Democrats, and only the Democrats, to win their own elections. That is not the responsibility of independent leftists, progressives or socialists. -Matt Fred Feldman wrote: >I also have said that I think the election of Obama is preferable not on a >"lesser evil" basis but as reflection of new setbacks to racism, and of >changing moods somewhat more in our direction in broad strata of youth and >working people. This is what I would call passive voice politics. From holmoff10@hotmail.com Sun Nov 02 15:14:00 2008 Received: from blu0-omc1-s9.blu0.hotmail.com ([65.55.116.20]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwlCq-0003D0-Ij for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 15:14:00 -0700 Received: from BLU136-W24 ([65.55.116.9]) by blu0-omc1-s9.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sun, 2 Nov 2008 14:13:53 -0800 Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [71.229.97.98] From: Leonardo Kosloff To: Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 22:13:54 +0000 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Nov 2008 22:13:53.0943 (UTC) FILETIME=[4AD0CA70:01C93D38] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Subject: Re: [Marxism] =?windows-1256?q?Obama=27s_economic_advisers_=28Bolchej?= =?windows-1256?b?byn+?= X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 22:14:00 -0000 Louis, Robert Rubin is also in the Obama economic team, I'm not exactly sure of what he does there though. It looks like for now he's staying on the fringes, overlooking the disasters he cooked up himself and that now his figurehead is presumably out to amend. But who knows what that kind of Clintonite spawn is really out to? You might want to expand on him, regards. p.s. Sorry for not clipping the previous message, I was kind of in a rush. _________________________________________________________________ Store, manage and share up to 5GB with Windows Live SkyDrive. http://skydrive.live.com/welcome.aspx?provision=1?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_skydrive_102008 From glparramatta@greenleft.org.au Sun Nov 02 15:22:48 2008 Received: from mx.mail.com.au ([203.17.36.233]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwlLM-0003E4-2e for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 15:22:48 -0700 Received: from mail.cia.com.au ([203.17.36.17] helo=cia.com.au) by mx.mail.com.au with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwlVD-0004py-Uo for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Mon, 03 Nov 2008 09:32:59 +1100 Received: (qmail 9535 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2008 22:22:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.1.1.2?) (58.105.87.152) by cia.com.au with SMTP; 2 Nov 2008 22:22:39 -0000 Message-ID: <490E2834.3010009@greenleft.org.au> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 09:22:44 +1100 From: glparramatta User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.17 (Windows/20080914) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenl >> greenl >> AAA: GreenLeft_discussion@yahoogroups.com" , marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu, AA: debate Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Subject: [Marxism] What's new at Links: Bolivia; climate; Obama; Cuban Five; Marx; Africa; Dennis Brutus poems; Venezuela; Malaysia; Tamils X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 22:22:49 -0000 Subscribe free to /Links - International Journal of Socialist Renewal/ - at http://www.feedblitz.com/f/?Sub=343373 Visit and bookmark http://links.org.au and add it to your RSS feed (http://links.org.au/rss.xml). If you would like us to consider an article, please send it to links@dsp.org.au *Please pass on to anybody you think will be interested in /Links./*/ / * * * Bolivia: Unprecedented alliance defeats right-wing assault (now with audio) *Now with audio*: *Federico Fuentes'* assessment after just returning from Bolivia. Morales seems to have outmanouevred the ultra-right's attempts to unseat him and to have made his position stronger, while his enemies are in disarray. He is so confident of his support in the popular social movements now that he is holding another referendum next month. * Read more John Bellamy Foster on climate change: `Demand solutions based on necessity, not wealth and profits' *John Bellamy Foster*: We need to go down to 350 parts per million [of carbon dioxide], which means very big social transformations on a scale that would be considered revolutionary by anybody in society today -- transformation of our whole society quite fundamentally. We have to aim at that, and we have to demand that of our society. * Read more Will Obama end Bush's `war on terror'? By *Simon Butler* October 31, 2008 -- In the aftermath of the September 11, 2001, bombings of the World Trade Center and Pentagon, US President George Bush declared an open-ended, apparently indefinite "war on terror". Using the terrorist attacks as an excuse, the "war on terror" has meant a war drive to extend US global domination. The threats were free flowing --- at one point as many as seven nations were part of the "axis of evil" and therefore potential military targets as Bush threatened "pre-emptive strikes" against US "enemies".Facing sustained resistance from the Iraqi people, and increasingly unpopular at home, the failure of the Iraqi occupation has contributed to making the Bush presidency one of the least popular in history. Campaigning for the White House, Democratic Party candidate Barack Obama has made much of his initial vote against the war in 2003. * Read more Overwhelming UN General Assembly vote against US blockade of Cuba New York --- The UN General Assembly on October 29 approved by an overwhelming majority the resolution demanding an end of the US blockade of Cuba, a vote passed by the assembly for the 17th consecutive year, news agencies report. * Read more David Harvey: Reading Karl Marx's Capital David Harvey has been teaching Karl Marx's /Capital/, Volume I for nearly 40 years, and his video lectures are now available at /Links/. * Read more Meanwhile, in Africa ... a tale of two `bailouts' By *Jean-Paul Piérot* While Africa needs US$72 billion a year in aid, hundreds of billions are being freed up to pay Western banks for the consequences of speculation. * Read more Sister of Cuban hero jailed in US demands `Free the Cuban Five!' *Maria Eugenia* is the sister of *Tony Guerrero*, one of the ``Cuban Five'' political prisoners held for 10 years in US prisons on ``conspiracy to commit espionage'' charges for reporting on the Miami-based, Washington-backed terrorist groups operating against Cuba. Eugenia recently toured Australia to build support for the campaign to free the five. Below is the three-part video of her Sydney public meeting. * Read more Two poems by Dennis Brutus in Caracas Below are two poems presented by veteran anti-apartheid and global social justice activist *Dennis Brutus*, in Venezuela for the eighth meeting of the Network of Intellectuals and Artists in Defence of Humanity and the World Forum for Alternatives, October 18, 2008. * Read more Venezuela: Between assassination plots and abstention By *Federico Fuentes*, Caracas October 25, 2008 -- Talk of assassination plots and rising concerns about a high abstention rate have marked the beginning of the November 23 regional elections race here in Venezuela. Formally at stake are 23 governorships, more than 300 mayorships and hundreds of representatives on the state legislative councils. However, the result of these elections could also have an important impact on the future of the Bolivarian Revolution led by the Chavez government. During the November 2004 regional elections, the pro-Chavez forces, on the back of the thumping victory in the August 2004 recall referendum on Chavez's mandate, painted the electoral map red as they swept into 21 of the 23 governorships up for election (they later rewon the governership of Amazonas to make it 22 out of 24 all up). * Read more Malaysian opposition stands up to racialism and intimidation By *Peter Boyle * October 25, 2008 -- Some parties in Malaysia's ruling National Front (BN) government are trying to intimidate opposition parties and social activists, Socialist Party Malaysia (PSM) secretary general S.Arutchelvan told Green Left Weekly, a few days after the PSM's sole federal MP, Dr D. Jeyakumar, had his car torched by thugs on October 17. * Read more New African resistance from below to global finance By *Patrick Bond * October 25, 2008 -- A far-reaching strategic debate is underway about how to respond to the global financial crisis, and indeed how the North's problems can be tied into a broader critique of capitalism. The 2008 world financial meltdown has its roots in the neoliberal export-model (dominant in Africa since the 1981 World Bank Berg Report and onset of structural adjustment during the early 1980s) and even more deeply, in 35 years of world capitalist stagnation/volatility. Africa has always suffered a disproportionate share of pressure from the world economy, especially in the sphere of debt and financial outflows. But for those African countries which made themselves excessively vulnerable to global financial flows during the neoliberal era, the meltdown had a severe, adverse impact. * Read more Stop the war in Sri Lanka! The Tamil national question in demands a political solution! *Communist Party of India (Marxist-Leninist) Liberation* central committee statement on developments in Sri Lanka. October 27, 2008 -- The Sri Lankan government's ongoing military campaign to corner and crush the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) has led to a terrible humanitarian crisis in the country. Reports emanating from the island indicate that the Sri Lankan state is on the verge of wresting military control over large parts of LTTE territory including the administrative headquarters in Killinochi. While the number of people killed so far in the crossfire between the advancing Sri Lankan armed forces is anybody's guess, some 500,000 people are estimated to have been displaced and rendered homeless in their own land. With the Sri Lankan government not allowing any relief to reach the people in refugee camps, international humanitarian organisations have been forced to leave the battle zones and recently even UN food convoys have had to return, leaving a vast population in the battle zones on the brink of starvation. * Read more * * * Links seeks to promote the international exchange of information, experience of struggle, theoretical analysis and views of political strategy and tactics within the international left. It is a forum for open and constructive dialogue between active socialists coming from different political traditions. It seeks to bring together those in the international left who are opposed to neoliberal economic and social policies. It aims to promote the renewal of the socialist movement in the wake of the collapse of the bureaucratic model of "actually existing socialism" in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. * ATTENTION: Sign up for regular ``what's new'' announcement emails at http://www.feedblitz.com/f/?Sub=343373 From paula_cerni@msn.com Sun Nov 02 15:38:04 2008 Received: from bay0-omc2-s9.bay0.hotmail.com ([65.54.246.145]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Kwla8-0003F4-1C for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 15:38:04 -0700 Received: from BAY122-DS5 ([207.46.10.160]) by bay0-omc2-s9.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sun, 2 Nov 2008 14:37:58 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [76.28.181.139] X-Originating-Email: [paula_cerni@msn.com] Message-ID: From: "Paula" Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 14:37:59 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 12.0.1606 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V12.0.1606 Bcc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Nov 2008 22:37:58.0537 (UTC) FILETIME=[A7DC5790:01C93D3B] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Subject: [Marxism] Capital Vol 1 word cloud X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 22:38:04 -0000 This Capital Vol 1 'word cloud' is wonderful: http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/manolakos291008.html Paula From absynthe@gmail.com Sun Nov 02 15:47:16 2008 Received: from yx-out-2324.google.com ([74.125.44.29]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Kwlj2-0003Gk-RD for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 15:47:16 -0700 Received: by yx-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 31so890024yxl.29 for ; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 14:47:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.174.13 with SMTP id w13mr2172145ane.141.1225666035913; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 14:47:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.213.20 with HTTP; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 14:47:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 17:47:15 -0500 From: "chegitz guevara" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: Subject: Re: [Marxism] Capital Vol 1 word cloud X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 22:47:17 -0000 That is so cool. On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 5:37 PM, Paula wrote: > This Capital Vol 1 'word cloud' is wonderful: > http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/manolakos291008.html > > Paula From cpiml_elo@yahoo.com Sun Nov 02 12:21:35 2008 Received: from web35501.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([66.163.179.125]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwiVy-0002w4-Ht for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 12:21:35 -0700 Received: (qmail 64536 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Nov 2008 19:21:28 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: MJRVji8VM1mGztsGOLwdqwXsWoIMR_TAiBZh32uX99Oy0M.qQOnOVg.s7SsTMmT7xQTnpIj_QtW9irRYutOBMUhnwJXmvOs0.TEgZ_Kjx38eAPxpfN.ofzJsVPsSxtasHp.2YximPQHR52mRMYQvCDZJWpfIBNIuWL44aVH6Eo4.gkmfL4I._OaEhxzK1ZW5HQWiEhafEMfAx5Mp65zSzBvXE5DEBi7WxmObMa_seEN_Mr6Yvt.pkw-- Received: from [209.6.179.96] by web35501.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 11:21:27 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.7.260.1 Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:21:27 -0800 (PST) From: "CPI \(ML\) Intl Liaison Office" To: cpiml_elo@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <20421.64392.qm@web35501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 16:03:32 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Subject: [Marxism] MLIN [Nov.-Dec.08] Financial Crisis | Orissa Pogrom | Sri Lanka | and More X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 19:21:35 -0000 =A0=20 ML International Newsletter=20 November-December 2008=20 =A0=20 *********************************************************************** =20 An update on news and ideas from the revolutionary left in India . =20 Produced by: Communist Party of India=20 (Marxist-Leninist) Liberation international team =20 *********************************************************************** =20 Websites: [mlint.wordpress.com] and [www.cpiml.org]=20 Emails: [cpiml_elo@yahoo.com] and [cpimllib@gmail.com]=20 =A0=20 Table of Contents=20 =A0=20 1)=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Impact of US Meltdown on Indian Economy=20 2)=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Nuke Deal Is a Conduit to Import US Crisis into India=20 3)=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Campaign against Communalism and Terrorism=20 4)=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Fact-Finding Report on Kandhamal Situation=20 5)=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 South Orissa Bandh by CPI (ML) and Other Parties=20 6)=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Students Revolt Against MNS-Shiv Sena Goons=20 7)=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 The Tamil National Question in Sri Lanka Demands a Political Solution=20 8)=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Fighting Caste Oppression and Untouchability: A Sri Lankan Experience=20 9)=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Thank Ye for Thy Baton Comrade Shukla=20 =A0=20 World Financial Crisis=20 =A0=20 Impact of US Meltdown on Indian Economy: =20 A Quick Assessment=20 =A0=20 - B Sivaraman. =20 =A0=20 The Spreading Economic Contagion: A Reluctant Recognition=20 Indian economy is insulated from the crisis=85The global financial crisis will not affect us much=85Fir= st Chidambaram went on in this vein until both he and his boss Manmohan had to reluctantly admit that no developing economy could possibly remain immune t= o the global crisis. Still, it was projected primarily as a financial crisis = or at best a precursor to a mild recession. But no financial crisis is ever a = mere crisis of the world of high finance alone. Just as the gloom on the trading floors soon spread to the shopfloors in the factories, financial turbulence= is just a symptom of the turmoil in the real economy.=20 =A0=20 In a global crisis of such historic proportion where the total bailout packages by all countries work = out to some 3 trillion dollars but where there is still uncertainty whether the system can be salvaged, it is stupid to pretend that India would be immune = to the systemic crisis. A finance minister=92s (FM) job is not to give false hopes= . Panic at the stock markets cannot be prevented for long with pep words from= the FM. Till October 14, the Bush administration alone has announced bailout packages to the tune of over $ 990 billion apart from injecting fresh investment worth $ 200 billion in banks and private financial institutions = to shore up their financial position. =20 =A0=20 The contagion is truly global in a globalised world. How can the high priests of globalisation in India e= xpect to insulate the country from this all-pervasive crisis?! Already the financial crunch is having its impact on the foreign institutional investors=92 (FII)= hot money in India . Just wait for the impact on trade, foreign direct investments (FDI), exchan= ge rates, remittances, balance of payments (BoP), forex reserves and, above al= l, on the macro-economy in India. Goodbye to the rosy stories of double-digit =91growth miracle=92, it is now an impending debacle that stares economic a= nalysts in the face.=20 =A0=20 The possible social impact is mindboggling. The new middle class in India is witnessing its first financial meltdown and a possible deep recession. The information technolog= y =96 business process outsourcing (IT-BPO) myth would soon be blown. The possibl= e BPO gains could hardly make up for the IT sector losses inflicted by recessionary economies in the developed world. Anyway, if the job losses ar= e already running into lakhs (100,000s) in the US , one can well imagine how = much political pressure will build up there against outsourcing. If such leading names like Morgan Stanley, Merrill Lynch, JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs and Lehm= an Brothers start biting dust and their brightest kids are given unceremonious marching orders, Indian B-school products are surely in for a bad patch. Pre-election political pressure may have forced Jet Airways to take back it= s decision to terminate 1900 employees, but the job scenario in the so-called high-growth high-wage sectors has already turned gloomy. =20 =A0=20 All booms in India , based primarily on foreign money, will soon go bust. The recession-ridden US cons= umer/industry can hardly sustain the growth miracles of China and India . The surpluses of the Indian bourgeoisie would find a greener pastures in greater and greater acquisitions abroad than investing anew in a dwindling economy at home. Didn=92t the Swiss bankers=92 association point out a few = months back that Indians were holding $1.4 trillion in Swiss banks? A sum about 40= % larger than the gross domestic product (GDP)! The only breed that will thri= ve is the breed of speculators =97 in stock markets, currency trade and possib= ly in the real estate, gold and art pieces where the desperate wealth would flow.= =20 =A0=20 In US, if it was first the speculative housing market bubble/subprime and then the financial bubble, i= n India it has just begun with the stock market bubble and possibly the real estate bubble= . When it extends to the investment bubble (what with the special economic zo= nes (SEZs) and other fabulous concessions, the telecom bubble, the IT-BPO bubbl= e and so on), all claims of India=20 having weathered the storm would wither. India perhaps might go under late and might take longer than the rest of the world to come out. All over the world there are 77 tax havens like St. Kitts and Cayman Islands . But in India=20 there are 580 SEZs! =20 =A0=20 The Immediate Impact on Indian Stock Markets=20 The festival season in India=20 was seldom so gloomy for the share market. Investor wealth worth Rs. 250, 0= 00 crore (1 crore =3D 10 million) was wiped out on the bourses on a single day= , on 10 October. The Sensex fell by 1000 points before recovering some 200 point= s, an intra-day drop of some 800 points. The lachrymal wave washed away the festive mood.=20 =A0=20 At the first sign of stock market crash and FII funds stampede, the United Progressive Alliance (UPA) Government has once again permitted P-notes (participatory notes) paving th= e way for enhanced speculation. The present convulsion in the Indian bourses would look mild before any possible explosion in future as a result of this heightened speculation. Despite the government itself acknowledging that th= e P-notes were being abused/misused at the time of banning them, no safeguard= has been put in place. Anyway, how can there be any safeguard within the realm = of speculations? It is absurd.=20 =A0=20 Impact on Indian Banks=20 =93Indian banks are safe,=94 reassured Reserve Bank of India (RBI) Governor Subbarao repeatedly. Indian banks' exposure to international markets is relatively small at 6 percent o= f their total assets, the rating agency Crisil said, adding that even lenders with large international operations have less than 11 percent of their asse= ts overseas. But a mini-version Indian bailout was in the making simultaneousl= y in the first week of October with the government virtually shoring up two mutu= al funds and Life Insurance Corporation (LIC) coming to the urgent rescue of t= hree more which landed into liquidity crisis in the backdrop of a steep crash in= the stock markets. =20 =A0=20 At a time when the big names in Western banking industry are queuing up for bailouts, there may be a sud= den leap in non-resident Indian (NRI) deposits in Indian banks as these funds w= ould look for a safe haven back home. We can hence expect a big clamour from the= NRI lobby for greater concessions for their deposits. Chidambaram would only be= too willing to oblige. The RBI recently increased the credit cost on term borrowings (with more than 7-year maturity) to Libor+4.5% and even then the= big Indian corporate names are finding it difficult to raise funds amidst the present turmoil. Indian borrowers will end up paying more for the foreign lenders and Indian banks might be forced to pay more for the NRIs =96 all i= n the backdrop of a creeping recession and falling rate of profits.=20 =A0=20 Even when Chidambaram was preparing to pass some 66 reforms-related pending Bills in possibly the las= t session of the parliament and a committee had prepared a blueprint for majo= r financial sector reforms, the US=20 financial crisis fell like a bombshell. No doubt, the UPA ideologues would = also use the global meltdown as a pretext to push the same risky reforms. In the years to come, as the new investment projects go under one after the other = and investors and insurance companies and hedge funds go under trading in credi= t default swaps and all such devices, the financial crisis here in India migh= t be the denouement rather than the beginning as in US. ICICI, the symbol of new breed of unscrupulous financial manipulators, is already in doldrums.=20 =A0=20 Increasing Liquidity=20 Liquidity position in India=20 is comfortable, said RBI Governor Subbarao after a slew of measures. But he avoided hinting at any possible reduction in prime lending rates. The liqui= dity position may be comfortable, the banks and financial institutions might be slush with funds once again but with interest rates ruling high there is no pick up in the credit offtake by SMEs (small and medium enterprises). As th= ey are the main employment providers in the industrial sector, the employment = in this sector has already taken a heavy toll. A deep and prolonged recession = in the West might result in unemployment for millions of these workers. =20 =A0=20 The RBI hurried to cut Cash Reserve Ratio (CRR) by 150 basis points to 7.5 per cent, releasing more tha= n $12 billion fresh liquidity into the Indian banking system. But if mere mon= ey supply alone can drive the economy and industrial growth forward uninterruptedly, then no economy will ever face any recession and there can= not be a meltdown of this nature. However, amidst all-round alarmism and panic reactions, confidence building itself has become the main plank of economic policy!=20 =A0=20 The government has once again liberalized ECB (external commercial borrowings by corporates). It is a dif= ferent matter that in the light of the meltdown nobody would bother to take a seco= nd look at dollar bonds issued by Indian banks despite all their backing by th= e Indian government and hence they are abandoning the idea raising external funds/borrowings. While RBI might come forward to infuse liquidity liberall= y in the short-term, wait for the booming NPA figures in the medium and long ter= m.=20 =A0=20 Exchange Rate: Rupee Depreciation=20 When the western economies are going into a tailspin one after the other, the appreciation of dollar and e= uro looks somewhat paradoxical. From unprecedented appreciation earlier a few months back, the rupee fell to record low =97 reaching Rs.49 per dollar at = some point. The dollar is gaining vis-=E0-vis rupee because of the outflow of th= e FII funds and since the worst is yet to come in the US /global meltdown, a repeat of the East Asian crisis in India is very much a possibi= lity. During the preceding period, if the rupee appreciated by around 18%, now it= has depreciated by around 19% during this Jan-Sept. =20 =A0=20 The exporters who were crying earlier are happy but it is now the turn of importers to come to grief. Not many people know or remember that manufacturing imports had overtaken total domestic manufacturing production in the domestic organised industrial sect= or this year. Apart from cost escalation and consequent reduction in profit margins, just wait for the impact of the rupee depreciation on inflation. T= he confident prediction of possible fall in inflation rate to single digit by January sounds hollow in the backdrop of this as well as the cut in CRR rat= es and other measures by the RBI aimed at increasing the liquidity. =20 =A0=20 Impact on Trade=20 The trade deficit is reaching alarming proportions. If exports are growing, imports are growing even more= . Thanks to workers=92 remittances, NRI deposits, FII investments and so on, = the current account deficit at around $10 billion doesn=92t look so threatening= . But for some reasons if the remittances dry up and FIIs funds take flight, it w= ill be a repetition of 1991 after a few years if forex reserves get depleted an= d trade deficits keep increasing at the present rate. Even as the country=92s exports and imports registered a substantial growth of 35.1 per cent and 37= .7 per cent in dollar terms, respectively, during the first five months of the current fiscal (April to August), the trade deficit during the period has s= hot up. The trade deficit was around $14 billion for a single month of August 2= 008, a record level. Even Goldman Sachs=92 prediction that India =92s forex rese= rves would decline to $271 billion by year end from $310 billion in March 2008 looks a very conservative estimate.=A0 =20 =A0=20 Unprecedentedly high forex reserves were becoming a burden. As most of these funds were in dollars, th= e government had parked most of them in US treasury bonds or invested them in securities and bonds in foreign banks. With the meltdown and consequent poo= r returns following rate reduction, these treasury investments have taken a beating. The government had its fingers burnt with the earlier dollar depreciation. A part of these funds could have been used to clear some of t= he external borrowings. Now with the recovery of the dollar, repayment costs i= n rupee terms have also shot up. A golden opportunity was missed. The governm= ent was toying with the idea of establishing a wealth fund/SPV (Special Purpose Vehicle) with these reserves to finance private parties taking up infrastructure projects through PPP. But, despite all the hype, the PPP has been a total flop so far. =20 =A0=20 An Indian Recession?=20 It might be just a slowdown in India=20 till now. But a recession cannot be ruled out in the medium term. Chidambar= am is claiming 7.5 - 8% growth this year. ADB has predicted 7% growth. Many ra= ting agencies estimate industrial growth between 6.5% and 5.2% from around 11-12= % in 2006-07. It is hoped that agriculture would be the saving grace this year thanks to a good monsoon. But just recall that Chidambaram was boasting abo= ut a possible 10% growth early this year after the budget and the situation has changed!=20 =A0=20 True, there is a boom in FDI this year. The total FDI between April and August this fiscal stood at $14.= 6 billion. A record figure. Average monthly FDI inflow is above $2 billion whereas a few years back that was the annual figure. Kamal Nath was confide= ntly asserting that the target of $35 billion for this year would be achieved. B= ut a closer look reveals that a sizable chunk of this FDI going into mining loot= , services, financial services in particular, entertainment industry includin= g luxury hotels and so on and also on mergers and acquisitions (M&As) not mainly to fresh investments in the core productive sectors alone. The long-= term sustainability of such a pattern of FDI flow is anybody=92s guess. Especial= ly, in the midst of the global liquidity crunch. Inflows into already committed projects might give a false impression and it remains to be seen how long t= his boom will continue. To sustain it, Chidambaram is bound to come up with a s= lew of fresh liberalisation measures. FDI caps in insurance, banking and financ= ial services are already being hiked. There might be 100% FDI in single-brand retail. There will be more and more sellouts to attract foreign capital. Ch= idambaram keeps repeating ad nauseam that India , like China , will continue high growth despite recession in the developed countries. =20 =A0=20 Well, if high growth is to be driven primarily by foreign capital assisted by government landgrab, tax waivers, assured returns guarantees for infrastructure investments and fabu= lous BOT terms and so on, in short, by making the whole of India into a tax haven, the structural distortions this Manmohan gamble would lead to is mindboggling. Leaving a handful of big business houses and Indian MNCs, not= hing Indian would be left in the =93Indian=94 economy. And even the =93 India = =94 MNCs have started looking outward. India Inc spent $26 billion in mergers and acquisitions abroad this year. The global meltdown would, if anything, only accelerate this trend and the scarce capital resources would be channelized= for overseas spending. If this is the story of overseas M&As by =93Indian=94 companies, M&As in India=20 by foreign companies is even more breathtaking. In power sector alone, the merger and acquisitions worked out to $5 billion out of a total M&A value of $55 billion in the infrastructure sector alone. This is the secret behin= d the high FDI. But overseas M&A is not a rosy path. Tatas teamed up with AIG which was one of the first to go under. TCS, Infosys and WIPRO=85all were o= n an acquisition spree abroad but at home they are the leading ones in issuing p= ink slips. =20 =A0=20 The nation would soon realize the real cost of the N-deal. N-deal was also a sort of bailout for the US i= ndustry. Kakodkar has once again made it clear that 20 nuclear reactors would be set= up! How in the given situation the governments would foot the bill in the next = ten years? =20 =A0=20 The Deflating Growth Bubble=20 And what about the growth story? Well, the ratio of savings and investment to the GDP reportedly rema= ins high at 35 per cent. So far so good. Still, there is a slowdown in the Indi= an economy. The core sector growth is down to less than 4 per cent. All vital productive sectors are on a slowdown. With such a structural background, if= and when the Indian economy slips into a recession, the recession will be protracted and there will be no a quick revival. Crude oil prices have decl= ined to $80 a barrel. The monsoon has been good in most parts of the country. Fo= r a couple of years it is not difficult to continue with the growth story. But infusion of liquidity, i.e., increasing the velocity of circulation alone i= n other words, can hardly sustain production. The basic structural flaws are bound to come back to the fore and haunt. =20 =A0=20 The problem might be made to look minor =97 as that of liquidity =97 at present but if there is a severe= constraint in demand then no amount of infusion of money into the system and supply si= de magic would be able to save it. And given the fiscal scenario, the governme= nt would not be able to go for any fresh neo-Keynesian binge either, leave alo= ne any major corporate bailout as in the US . Pay commissions and loan waivers might sustain aggregate demand for a couple of years but signs of slowdown are already on the wall. Despite repeated promptings of Chidambara= m, the bankers are not ready to reduce even the home loan rates and not just t= he prime lending rate for the businesses. After all, they are hardnosed businessmen and they will continue to be top executives in their banks whil= e Chidambaram and his party might go out of power.=20 =A0=20 The 11th Plan estimates that to maintain an average annual growth rate of 9%, the investment in infrastructure would have to rise from Rs. 259, 839 crore in 2007-08 to Rs.= 574,096 crore in 2011-12 at constant 2006-07 prices, aggregating to Rs. 2,011,521 c= rore over five years. In the terminal year, this works out to be 9 per cent of t= he GDP, up from 5 per cent of the GDP in 2006-07. The Plan document itself say= s that the government cannot manage this much money and a substantial part of= it has to come from the private sector. PPP is supposed to pave the way. But w= hat is the record so far? The Government of India's Committee on Infrastructure which monitors PPPs notes that 244 PPP projects are ongoing and another 76 = are in the pipeline in the country. The total capital outlay in the ongoing pro= jects amount to a minor fraction of the total projection by the Planning Commissi= on. To finance infrastructure projects, the GoI established an India Infrastruc= ture Finance Company Limited (IIFCL), a wholly Government-owned company to provi= de long term finance for infrastructure projects. According to the IIFCL websi= te, it would provide loans upto 20 per cent of the project cost and projects "awarded to a private sector company ... [a company established] through Public Private Partnership (PPP) shall have overriding priority". And how big is this IIFCL? The GoI has successfully persuaded the World Bank to giv= e it a loan of a meagre Rs.2700 crore to finance projects worth Rs. 2,011,521 cr= ore! Making bogus projections to justify pro-private sector policy changes is th= e thriving industry in India . In such a situation, can any sizable fund flow into the risky infrastructur= e sector of a developing country amidst tottering private banks and investmen= t funds?=20 =A0=20 Many approved SEZs are in doldrums as they are not getting any units and this whole thing is a massiv= e real estate speculation of gigantic proportions. Even though the real estat= e speculation in India is taking a different trajectory and is not as reckless as credit instruments without any backing by collaterals as in the US subprime, the real estate b= ubble centering around SEZs landgrab is no less serious. Despite RBI=92s reservat= ions, the banks were competing to lend to SEZ promoters and even the nationalized public sector banks accumulating huge NPAs would be lined up for private takeover. SEZs might finally achieve what Narasimham=92s two reports could = not achieve. If millions of home loan borrowers are defaulters, the banks can t= ake back their houses. Even they can takeover the SEZs. But if they themselves = go deep into the red irretrievably, they themselves would be taken over. Companies incurring loss too would be taken over by stronger sharks. After a wave of takeovers, if the economy doesn=92t revive, this would only amount to takin= g over the losses. A massive collapse in asset prices is the ultimate eventuality.= =20 =A0=20 Social Impact=20 =91Suicides after market crash is an urban trend=92 =85screamed the headlines in a pink paper. Beneath tha= t was the sob story of an entire family committing suicide after heavy loss in th= e stock market. =93Whether it is a seemingly well-to-do US-resident of Indian origin wiping out his entire family or middle-aged brother-sister duo killi= ng their parents and then committing suicide, the financial crisis has hit everyone, and has hit them hard=94, the report added. At least, the despera= te farmers go alone leaving their family members in the lurch. But the scorche= d middle class investors take their entire families along and that is the lev= el of urban investing middle class insecurity. This explains the golden age fo= r gold as investment in yellow metal is considered safer. Just think of the hundreds of new scrips by companies with ambitious investment plans countin= g on these investible surpluses of the middle classes and also the market opportunities opened up by their wealth. All these plans for new scrips wil= l be scrapped. The middle class boom might be glamorous but the depression in incomes and losses in the markets are far more agonizing. Pink slips are painful indeed and joblosses are not limited to the West alone. Those who a= re hoping that jobs in the West would shift across to the cheaper shores of th= e India are missing the point that domestic job losses due to recession in the West as well as a slowdown in India would fa= r outweigh such outsourcing gains. Even the real estate boom is going bust in= Bangalore , the Indian El Dorado.=A0=A0 =20 =A0=20 The Indian BPO sector derives 40 per cent of its revenues from the financial sector of the developed countries and exactly as they mushroomed fast they will wilt with the same speed. IT-BPO sector in India=20 accounts for 5.5% of the GDP but 30% of exports and a very high share of service sector employment in cities like Bangalore . El Dorado is poised to turn into a hell!=A0 =20 =A0=20 Take the case of garments and textiles. Hardly a few months back, tens of thousands of workers, mostly wo= men, were out of jobs in Chennai and Bangalore=20 and towns like Tiruppur and Karur. The villain was the rupee appreciation, leading to some 18% reduction in incomes in rupee terms. After the loot by layers and layers of intermediaries, the factory producer was left with not= hing and hence closed down the unit. Now dollar has appreciated, smile returned = to the faces of garment owners but the smile soon vanished. The current exchan= ge rate offers handsome returns but the orders are drying up due to impending recession. No margin then=85no orders now! No jobs in both the scenarios.= =20 =A0=20 The impact on the working class by means of wage compression and workloads, illegal retrenchment and worsening of job security and working conditions etc., would be onerous. Already this has started happening. For reasons of space, we are not elaborating. But we can only say there will be many more NOIDAs. =20 =A0=20 The employment in organised industrial sector =96 both public and private =96 was 8.98 million in 1997 = but it was down to 7.62 million by 2005, i.e., precisely during the growth miracle= if we leave out the disastrous year of 2001-02 for the industry when the growt= h was very low. If the growth miracle turns into a debacle what will happen t= o organised sector employment? Formal sector will be informalised and permane= nt workers will be booted out.=20 =A0=20 Bailouts for the bankrupt and boot-out for the workers. The same logic of capital! Total blackout of the possible social impact of the meltdown and almost virtual absence of any discourse on safety measures/nets is one of the characteristic features of = the current crisis of capital, across the globe as well as in India .=20 =A0=20 Politics in India=20 =A0=20 Nuke Deal Is a Conduit to Import US Crisis into India=20 =A0=20 - =A0Liberation, November, 2008.=20 =A0=20 The United Progressive Alliance (UPA) government has finally sealed the nuclear deal with the US .= For the Congress and the coalition of Unashamed Partners of America headed by it, t= he nuclear deal is the supreme achievement of the government. On the eve of signing the deal, External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee reiterated Ind= ia =92s commercial commitment to the US nuclear energy industry: =93We look forward to working with US companies on the commercial steps that will follow to implement this landmark Agreement.=94 = In a second statement issued after the Agreement=92s signing he also reiterated India=92s commitment to implement the Agreement in good faith even though n= o such reciprocal assurance was made by the US to confirm New Delhi=92s claim rega= rding the so-called US =91guarantee=92 on uninterrupted fuel supply. =20 =A0=20 On India =92s part, faithful implementation of the commitments, whether declared or undeclared, has long been underway. From the vote against Iran=20 at IAEA to the continuing prevarication and procrastination on the issue of= the Iran-Pakistan-India gas pipeline proposal, India=20 has been complying with the Hyde Act, which requires India =92s foreign pol= icy to be congruent with American priorities and objectives, in letter and spirit. An= d now Pranab Mukherjee=92s explicit assurance reaffirms the commercial component = of India =92s commitment, which can only be music to American ears at a time when the US economy is passing through its worst crisis in some eighty years. The dilapidated atomic reactor industry = in the US is awaiting hefty orders from India=20 even as massive military purchases are in the pipeline.=20 =A0=20 The day Pranab Mukherjee and Condoleezza Rice inked the nuke deal, George Bush met the finance ministers= and central bankers of the Group of 7 (G7) countries =96 the US, Germany, Japan= , France, Britain, Italy and Canada =96 and leading officials of the IMF in a desperate bid to check the growing financial panic that has now begun to sp= read beyond the American horizons to overshadow the G7 sky.=A0 The meeting of th= e G7 finance chiefs called for =93urgent and exceptional action=94 and the use of =93all available too= ls to support systematically important financial institutions and prevent their failure.=94 In a separate statement US Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson adm= itted =93never has it been more essential to find collective solutions to ensure = stable and efficient financial markets and restore the health of the world economy= .=94=20 =A0=20 History is replete with examples showing what the US=20 really means by finding =93collective solutions=94. It desperately tries to= pass on its crisis to other countries and refuel its military-industrial complex to underwrite its economy, and in the process steps up politico-military intervention across the world. And it is precisely at this juncture that th= e Indian ruling classes have pushed India into a tight strategic embrace with the crisis-ridden US =96 a country that is hated by most natio= ns of the world for its imperialist arrogance and aggression and whose economy is= now emitting waves of financial instability and panic across the global economy= . Strategic partnership with the US=20 can only prove to be a conduit for importing the entire gamut of crises fac= ing the US into India . =20 =A0=20 Manmohan Singh and his ilk epitomise the typical Indian comprador mindset that considers the US to be = the pinnacle of capitalist success and would do everything to bask in the Ameri= can sun. But the much-trumpeted great American dream is now fast turning sour. = Just a couple of days before Pranab Mukherjee signed the deal, almost every newspaper in India carried the shocking story of an MBA degree-holder from India killing his entire family as well as himself as all his fortunes collapsed in the ongoing financial meltdown. The nuke deal and Indo-US strategic partnership is not a passport to US-sponsored prosperity and powe= r, it is an invitation to greater crisis and vulnerability to US blackmailing = and arm-twisting. All right-thinking Indians must reject this sordid comprador capitulation with the contempt it deserves.=20 =A0=20 Politics in India=20 =A0=20 Campaign against Communalism and Terrorism: =20 Beyond the National Integration Council (NIC) Deliberations=20 =A0=20 - Liberation, November, 2008.=20 =A0=20 After a lapse of more than three years the NIC met last week against a backdrop of raging communal violence in several parts of the country punctu= ated by periodic bomb-blasts in major cities. The response of the state to such = a situation conforms to a by now familiar, almost predictable pattern. The NI= C deliberations only reflected and reaffirmed this pattern.=20 =A0=20 In the face of communal violence unleashed by the Sangh Parivar, the state withdraws into a shell of inaction, or openly stands by the perpetrat= ors and protagonists of such violence, depending upon whether the reins of the state are in the hands of the Congress/United Progressive Alliance (UPA) or= the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP)/National Democratic Alliance (NDA). In the wak= e of a terrorist incident, the same state however becomes hyperactive. The polic= e swings into action, arrests and encounters follow suit, and we are treated = to an official propaganda blitzkrieg with sensational stories as to how the st= ate has just busted some =91terror modules=92 or killed or arrested some dreade= d =91terrorist masterminds=92. =20 =A0=20 While the police establishment reduces the whole question of tackling terrorism to a no-holds-barred battle between =91terrorist masterminds=92 a= nd =91encounter specialists=92 in which the courts and constitution must not p= lay spoilsport, the political establishment launches a competitive chorus for a= hard state and tough anti-terror laws. The BJP demands re-enactment of Preventio= n of Terrorist Act (POTA), the Congress rules out bringing back any law that has already been exposed and discredited in public experience, promising to introduce even tougher new laws.=20 =A0=20 In his speech at the NIC, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh delivered all the customary =91secular=92 and =91democratic=92 shibboleths that we often hear= these days even from his =91counterpart-in-waiting=92 Mr. LK Advani who however refuse= d to attend the NIC meeting, reportedly peeved that his name figured at the 137t= h position in the list of invitees! The PM called for avoiding any =93impress= ion that any community, or sections amongst them, are being targeted, or that s= ome kind of profiling is being attempted=94. He also reiterated his commitment = to the Constitution and the principles of civil liberties and democratic rights: = =93We should not be provoked to suspend or subvert a democratic process in the se= arch for solutions. A democracy has a special onus in that it has to ensure protection of civil liberties even as it seeks to enforce law and order.=94= =20 =A0=20 Perhaps all this talk about not subverting the democratic process was meant to justify the UPA government=92s refusal to take any action against = Sangh outfits like the Bajrang Dal, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) or the Hindu = Yuva Vahini. In Delhi , the police versions regarding the Jamia Nagar encounter have raised precise= ly the kind of questions that Manmohan Singh says should be avoided, but the U= PA government has refused to set up a judicial enquiry headed by a sitting Sup= reme Court judge to resolve the issue on the plea that such a step would demoral= ise the police! =20 =A0=20 With the government limiting its role to empty phrases and deliberate inaction against the perpetrators of communal violence, NDA constituents we= re emboldened to offer all kinds of arguments in their own support. Orissa Chi= ef Minister Naveen Patnaik attributed the Kandhamal attacks on Christians to =91conflict of interests=92 between scheduled castes (SCs) and scheduled tr= ibes (STs), leaving it to the Centre to decide if Bajrang Dal should be banned. Sushma Swaraj of the BJP accused the UPA of failing to distinguish between extremi= sm, which is linked to =91home-grown sentiment=92, and terrorism, which accordi= ng to her, is all about secession!=20 =A0=20 While the NDA speakers boldly advocated their point of view, the CPI (M) said little except reiterating the party=92s unstinted support to any offic= ial campaign against terrorism. The party refrained from demanding a ban on the Sangh outfits; and instead of explaining the context in which India is increasingly internalising the threat of terrorism, Yechury only harped on = the anti-national argument to denounce terrorism. =20 =A0=20 By equating terrorism with secessionism, the propagandists and ideologues of the Sangh brigade are trying to pitch their variety of =91nationalism=92= as the most powerful anti-terrorist antidote. And this, like most Sangh claims, is based on complete lies. If secessionist sentiment prevails in any part of t= he country, that too is very much a home-grown sentiment and this recognition = is central to any quest for a political solution to secessionist campaigns. Moreover, the terrorist incidents now taking place across the country have little to do with any secessionist sentiment brewing in any part of the country. These incidents are rather a reflection of, and reaction to, the combination of the following three factors: the relentless Sangh campaign o= f communal violence, the growing involvement of India in the US-led global wa= r, and the increasingly unmistakable communal bias of the Indian state in most of = its affairs and actions. =20 =A0=20 At a time when communalism and terrorism are growing in a dangerous spiral, the campaign against communalism and terrorism must be firmly ancho= red in the secular, democratic, anti-imperialist agenda of the Indian people.= =20 =A0=20 Orissa Pogrom=20 =A0=20 Fact-Finding Report on Kandhamal Situation=20 =A0=20 - Liberation, November, 2008.=20 =A0=20 A Communist Party of India [CPI (ML)] fact-finding team visited Orissa=92s Kandhamal District on 15-16 October, 2008. The team visited affected villages and relief camps, after facing interrogation by the Orissa Police and the Central Reserve Police Fo= rce (CRPF). The team also met District Magistrate (DM) and various police offic= ials of Kandhamal district. Below is a report by team member J P Minz. =20 =A0=20 1. The District Magistrate=92s (DM) Statement: The DM told us that Kandhamal had been peaceful for the precedin= g ten days. Whereas there used to be fifteen relief camps, now only seven wer= e operational, having 12,641 people. According to him, breakfast, meals, supplementary food meant for children, and iron and calcium tablets for pregnant women are available in these camps; a doctor is available round th= e clock; books are available for children and there are regular reading sessi= ons. Blankets, sarees, buckets and mugs and similar essentials have also been provided.=20 =A0=20 2. Conditions at the Relief Camps: Our team visited Phulbani, Tikabali, Ji Udaygiri and Rakiya relief c= amps and found that the inmates of the camp are living in extremely bad conditio= ns. In the name of breakfast they get only fifty grams of chura (beaten rice) a= nd rice-dal for meals, which is not enough to satisfy the needs of hunger and nutrition. In the name of supplementary food, the children are occasionally given biscuits. Bathing soaps have been distributed just once in the camps.= The doctors do visit but patients are told that there is no medicine. There is = no arrangement for pregnant women. The camp inmates sleep on plastic mats on t= he ground. They have to defecate in the open, which apart from being unhygieni= c also puts them in danger. One inmate of Ji Udaygiri camp, we were told, was killed when he had gone to defecate.=20 =A0=20 3. Role of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) and Bajrang Dal: The victims in all the relief camps unanimo= usly told the fact finding team that it is the VHP and Bajrang Dal cadres who ha= ve sowed the seeds of communal division in the villages. They used to organize meetings of the Kandha tribals and incite them to attack the Christian haml= ets and also provided funds for doing this.=20 =A0=20 4. Role of the Police and Administration: The anti-Christian riots in Kandhamal started on the day of= the bandh called by VHP after the murder of Swami Lakshmananad, and these riots continued for over a month. In the communal fire two hundred Christian vill= ages and 127 Church and prayer halls were either destroyed or burnt. Apart from this, schools, hospitals, hostels and convents also have been damaged. The incidents of killings, rape and loot also were carried out in addition to former incidents. The shocking fact is that all these incidents took place = in full view of police and the police remained mute spectators. The official figure for deaths has been reported to be 31, however, a senior government = official on the condition of anonymity informed that he himself consigned two hundre= d dead bodies - found from the jungle - to flames after getting them collecte= d in a tractor. As per his estimates based on the intensity and pace of killings= the number of those killed is over five hundred.=20 =A0=20 5. Atmosphere of Terror: The Christians continue to experience great terror. The Sangh outfits are campaigning for sending back the CRPF and the Nikhil Utkal Kui community is threatening to launch an armed movement. Riot-victims are frightened to go = back to their villages because they have been threatened that if they return the= y will be hacked into pieces. The rioters are also proclaiming that only Hind= u converts will be allowed to return. On the other hand, those in charge of t= he relief camps are pressurizing the riot victims to return to their villages saying that the life has returned to normalcy and peace has returned.=20 =A0=20 Conclusions:=20 =A0=20 1. This violence was a pre-planned anti-Christian communal assault, and in no way was it a =91clas= h=92 between adivasi (tribals) and dalits.=20 2. This violence which had full support from the Biju Janta Dal Government was planned and executed by= VHP and Bajrang Dal.=20 3. The Sangh=92s propaganda about =91indiscriminate religious conversion=92 is a far cry from facts, as= the Christian population of Orissa is only 2.5 per cent of the total population= . It is to be noted that Christian missionaries began working in Orissa 150 year= s back.=20 4. Dalits have far less proportion of land in comparison to the Kandha tribals. In Kandhamal 90 per cent land is government land, 5.5 percent belongs to tribals and rest 4.5 p= er cent belongs to Dalits, OBC and Oriya (businessmen). There is not much difference in the economic conditions of the tribals and the dalits. The da= lits are very slightly better off as they engage in small businesses.=20 =A0=20 Our Demands:=20 1. The Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) and Bajrang Dal (BD) should be banned.=20 2. Chief Minister Naveen Patnaik responsible for the violence should tender his resignation immediat= ely=20 3. The accused for the riots be immediately arrested. =20 4. The Orissa Govt. must reconstruct all houses, churches, schools, hostels, hospitals and other social-religious structures demolished during the violence and for other damages adequate compensation be granted after a proper survey=20 5. The relief camps be run for another six months and proper civic arrangements for food, medicine and sanitation be made in these camps. =20 6. Arrangements be made for registering First Information Reports (FIRs) related to the communal violen= ce at all police stations. =20 7. Peace process be initiated and guarantees be made for reopening and running of schools, hospitals and other institutes run by the Christian missionaries.=20 =A0=20 Orissa Pogrom=20 =A0=20 United Protests: South Orissa Bandh by CPI (ML) and Other Parties=20 =A0=20 - Liberation, November, 2008. =20 =A0=20 On 13th October CPI (ML) Liberation along with four other parties =96 CPI (ML) New Democracy (ND), Communist Party of India (Marxist Leninist) [CPI (ML)], Socialist Unity Cen= ter of India (SUCI) and Samajwadi Jan Parishad held a successful bandh in five districts of South Orissa - Kandhamal, Rayagada, Gajapati, Koraput and Ganj= am =96 against the carnage in Kandhamal, the complicity of the Navin Patnaik Government and the criminal inaction of the Congress-led UPA Government at = the Centre. The bandh was total in the five districts and marked by the spontan= eous participation of people. Around 10, 000 people actively participated in Liberation=92s initiatives to make the bandh a success in Rayagada; 1200 in Gajapati.=20 =A0=20 Holding that the ruling BJD as well as Congress which is in power at the Centre too have blood on their ha= nds because of their hands-off approach towards the Sangh Parivar mobs, the CPI (ML) had declined to join a joint protest announced by Communist Party of I= ndia (CPI) and the Communist Party of India (Marxist) [CPI (M)] with Biju Janata= Dal (BJD) and the Congress party in the state.=20 =A0=20 In Bhubaneswar , trains were stopped and the National Highway=20 blocked by 200 Liberation activists. Comrade Tirupati Gomango held a rally = of around 8000 people at Gunupur. The bandh sent out a stern political message rejecting the communal violence against thousands of Christians by the Sang= h outfits and condemning the forces in power which are allowing the violence = to take place unhindered. =20 =A0=A0=A0 =20 CPI (ML) Liberation=92s Nation Wide Protests=20 On October 3, CPI (ML) held nation-wide protests demanding prosecution of Chief Ministers of Orissa and Karnataka for allowing saffron mobs to indulge in an anti-Christian pogrom; demanding a ban on the Sangh outfits guilty of communal violence and protes= ting against the UPA Government=92s refusal to take stern action against the com= munal killers. A memorandum to the President of India was submitted from all over= the country. The memorandum, raising all the above issues and demands, also not= ed that the Sangh=92s accusations of =91forced conversion=92 was actually serv= ing to cover up their own acts of forcing adivasis and Christians to convert to Hinduism. Conversion from Hinduism has largely been an act of rebellion by = the oppressed castes against the caste-ridden Hindu fold, noted the memo, and = =93the current wave of violence is therefore also an attempt to terrorise the Dali= ts and other oppressed social groups for their rebellion =96 and is therefore = a continuation of social oppression in another form.=94 The acts of humiliati= on of Christians that have come to light =96 raping, parading naked, and forcing = to eat excreta as =91purification=92 ritual =96 are all reminiscent of the atrocit= ies against Dalits. =20 =A0=A0=A0=A0 =20 The party also noted the increasing incidents of communal violence in Dhule ( Maharashtra ) and Adilabad (Andhra Pradesh), in which the minority community bore the bru= nt of the attacks. Also, it condemned the Tarun Gogoi Government for allowing = the Bodo-Muslim clashes to take place, which had resulted in thousands of peopl= e being driven into refugee camps. =20 =A0=A0=A0 =20 In Delhi , activists of CPI (ML) gathered at Parliament Street=20 and burnt an effigy of Navin Patnaik and Yeddyurappa, and submitted a memorandum to the President.=20 =A0=20 In Karnataka, another major centre of the ongoing communal violence, protest demonstrations were held i= n various places in the state, and the memorandum to the President was sent through the tahsildars in the taluks. More than hundred people protested in front of taluk office at Harapanahalli. The demo evoked much expectation in= the town as a church near Harapanahalli was also attacked sometime back. Our comrades had helped in getting bail for the Christian priests, on whom fals= e cases had been foisted in addition to the attack on their church. The demo = at Gangavati was also impressive and demonstrators shouted slogans against BJP that is coming out with its true colours after assuming power in the state.= The demo at HD Kote near Mysore=20 protestors included construction labourers and All India Central Coordinati= on of Trade Unions (AICCTU) activists.=20 =A0=20 In Jharkhand, hundreds of people marched in the capital of Ranchi . The March against Communalism, in the Sainik Bazaar campus, was led by CPI = (ML) General Secretary Comrade Dipankar. The March culminated in a mass meeting = at Albert Ekka Chowk, addressed by many leaders. Protest processions, effigy burning, dharnas and mass meetings were also held at various district headq= uarters (HQs) in Jharkhand; Bihar; Assam and Karbi Anglong; UP; W. Bengal, Tamilnad= u, Uttarakhand, Rajasthan, and Durg. =20 =A0=20 All India Progressive Womens Association (AIPWA) between 10-14 October, held protests and submitted a memorandum to the President of India demanding ban on the Sangh outfits Baj= rang Dal and VHP responsible for assaults on Christians, and a Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) probe into the rape of a nun in Orissa.=20 =A0=20 Politics in India=20 =A0=20 Students Revolt in Bihar=20 Against Inaction on MNS-Shiv Sena Goons=20 =A0=20 - ML Update, 28 October - 03 November 2008.=20 =A0=20 Bihar Bandh called by All India=20 Students=92 Association (AISA) is a Success=20 The scale and level of students' anger and outburst against attack on North Indians in Mumbai and Maharashtra was historic on the day of Bihar Bandh called by All India Students' Association. The whole State machinery was out to stop the agitating students from expressing their anger and shock at the state of inaction by Maharashtra and Central UPA governments, but the students and youth, despite severe police crackdown on bandh and protests on 25th October overcame all suppression and made the bandh a success. The news agencies and media houses under instruction from Bihar Government tried to play down the news, however the scale of the actions on the streets were just too intense to be suppressed.=20 =A0=20 The non Maharashtrian students who had gone to Mumbai for appearing in an examination conducted by the Railways were brutally and severely attacked on Sunday 19 October by the Maharashtra Navnirman Sena (MNS) goons and were forced to return from Mumba= i. The students from Bihar upon their arrival at Patna Junction Station next d= ay and learning the tragic death of Pawan (examinee from Nalanda) virtually se= ized the Patna Railway Station and even firing in air by the police did not stop them. The Station was literally in the hands of the agitating students. The students wanted Bihar 's chief minister (CM) Nitish Kumar and Railway Minister Lalu Prasad both to come to the Patna Sta= tion and meet them. The students' heightened anger was not just due to attacks o= nly on them, but the fact that prior to the examination they had requested Mr. = Lalu Prasad to change the centre and venue of the examinations from Mumbai citin= g the recent attacks on people and students from Bihar and other north Indian states. This request of theirs had fallen on deaf ears of CM and Railway Minister and students' apprehension turned into reality. When the students = had gone to Mr. Lalu Prasad prior to the examination for change in venue, he di= d not meet them and the reports of the same were carried in the news papers p= rior to the incident of attacks. The students gradually spilled over on the stre= ets and vented their anger by smashing glass-panes of vehicles and breaking anything coming their way. The students in other districts of Bihar=20 took similar action.=20 =A0=20 To orient the struggle towards the just demand of trying Raj Thackeray for murder and sedition and putting= a ban on MNS and Shiv Sena, the AISA called for a meeting of all students' organizations at Patna University on 21st October which was attended by Sta= te leadership of the student wings of the ruling Jananta Dal (United) [JD (U)]= , as well as Rashtriya Janata Dal (RJD), Lok Janshakti Party (LJP) and National Student=92s Union of India (NSUI), and also the student wing of Sharad Pawa= r's National Congress Party (NCP); in fact most student organizations except Akhil Bhart= iya Vidhayarthi Parishad (ABVP) which was not invited for the all party meet. A= t the meeting the joint decisions of all the student organizations was to cal= l for arresting and prosecuting Raj Thackeray on charges of murder and sediti= on, calling on the forty members of parliament (MPs) from Bihar to initiate immediate action in Parliament to demand that the UPA Government rein in th= e MNS and Shiv Sena or else resign. It was decided to hold a protest march on= the following day (22nd October) to voice their urgent demands, followed by Students' Assembly=20 =A0=20 On 22nd morning, however, due to news of police firing on agitating students at Sasaram the AISA leadersh= ip of Bihar felt that Students' Assembly was not enough in voicing the urge fo= r urgent action for justice and decided to call for a Bihar=20 bandh and it was accordingly communicated to all the students=92 organizati= ons that attended the meeting. AISA also asked the organizations to declare the bandh call from the podium during the protest meeting and on the following = day all the newspapers carried it. Later while a press conference of the studen= t organizations was on, an all-party meet called by Bihar CM Mr. Nitish Kumar= was also going on that was boycotted by the CPI (ML). The meeting was not calle= d so much as to discuss the growing attacks on the north Indians and people from Bihar, rather the agenda of the meeting was the situation in Bihar=20 after the attacks =96 clearly indicating the Government's mood to suppress = the students and youth protests. While parties like JD (U), RJD, LJP and Congre= ss were just paying lip service to the whole situation and then we saw a comin= g together of all arch rivals while meeting the Prime Minister Mr. Manmohan S= ingh only to tell him that they have kept the angry youth under control and unle= ss the UPA acts against MNS and Maharashtra Govt. the student-youth anger may become difficult to control.=20 =A0=20 Along with AISA, however, the students=92 organizations of all these ruling parties (except ABVP) had dec= lared the support for Bihar bandh on 25th October. The same evening as the all-Party meet ended and they came to know of their students' wing's declaration, the parties pressurized their students' organization to pull out from the bandh. The Chhatra-RJD, was the first to pressure its members to stay away. Many of these ruling parties' students' organizations published their declaration of pulling out from the bandh and= by 24th morning it was clear that no students' organization was with bandh exc= ept AISA and Revolutionary Youth Association (RYA) which also declared full sup= port for the bandh. At this development the Patna University unit of almost all = the organizations (except ABVP) terming this pull-out a betrayal of the student community, declared their intention to defy their State leadership and go w= ith AISA to support the bandh, and eventually they did rebel (including the rul= ing Party's Chattra=96JD (U)) and implemented the bandh call in Patna on 25th October. The bourgeois parties could not suppress their students urge for justice as promised to the PM. There are also confirmed reports of students from organizations of ruling parties defying their Party's order and coming= out in full support of the Bandh. At some places even some sections of ABVP ran= ks defied their organisation's order and supported the bandh. This trend is reflective of the spirit of unity among common students against criminal an= d corrupt politics of all mainstream parties.=20 =A0=20 The bandh was hugely successful in Patna and several districts of Bihar incuding Ara, Buxar, Arwal, Jehanabad, Gaya , Nalanda, Bhojpur, Siwan= , Jamui, Lakhisarai, Muzaffarpur, Darbhanga, Sasaram, Sheikhpura, Narkatiagunj, Samastipur etc. The AISA and rebel students from other organizations stoppe= d trains and road traffic at several places in Bihar . The effigies of MNS president Raj Thackeray and Shiv Sena's Bal Thackeray w= ere burnt at various places despite security forces trying to stop them. At som= e places even the effigy of railway minister Mr. Lalu Prasad was also burnt. = The students everywhere demanded that both these leaders be booked for murder a= nd sedition. ''If Union Ministers from Bihar fail to ensure the institution of cases against both the Thackerays under IPC sections relating to offences o= f murder and sedition, we would move ahead to intensify the agitation for the= ir en masse resignation,'' warned Abhyuday, State Secretary of AISA. Abhyuday = also took exception to the silence of Railway Minister Lalu Prasad and Union Ste= el and Fertilisers Minister Ramvilas Paswan on the issue of taking constitutio= nal action against the Vilasrao Deshmukh government for its failure in ensuring safety and security of Biharis in Maharashtra .=20 =A0=20 Two thousand students throughout the State were arrested. Police lathicharged the agitating stude= nts in several districts and the irony above all is that those now in jails wer= e threatened by the police to be charged with sedition. There are hundreds of students and youth still in jails. The outburst of the student has been mas= sive and entire police and administrative setup simply could not contain the protesting students except lathicharging and threatening to book them with sedition. Also, what was seen is the students' unity as against the unity o= f all the ruling parties in suppressing the anger and urge for immediate acti= on for justice to the families of Pawan and the other student who eventually l= ost their life at the hands of MNS goons, mute spectator Maharashtra government= and an insensitive Lalu Prasad who did not heed to students' requests for chang= ing the venue of examinations.=20 =A0=20 Meanwhile, another incident of another cold blooded murder has taken place in Mumbai in which one youth Rahul Raj from Patna was shot dead in a so-called =91encounter=92 by the Maharashtra Police led by the assistant commissioner of police (ACP) of Mumbai. His dead body is being brought to Bihar on 29th October. After the bandh, CPI (ML) General Secretary Com. Dipankar Bhattacharya and AISA State leaders visited Pawan's family in Nalanda to share their grief and assure the family of justice for Pawan. It came out that Pawan's father was an employee and a trade union activist in Maharashtra 's textile mills before being thrown out of the job in 90's. A son is killed in the State where his father toiled in mills to bring prosperity to that state. Couple of days before the Bihar bandh a day long Nalanda bandh was also called by AISA and RYA to protest Pawan=92s death. Nalanda happens to be home constituency of Bihar CM Mr. Nitish Kumar. He was also slated to hold some kind of meeting in Nalanda, however, the enraged students uprooted all the arrangements being made for his meeting and the bandh was a huge success in Nalanda.=20 =A0=20 South Asia=20 =A0=20 Stop the War! =20 The Tamil National Question in Sri Lanka Demands a Political Solution!=20 =A0=20 [Text of CPI (ML) Central Committee Statement on developments in Sri Lanka .]=20 =A0=20 The Sri Lankan government=92s ongoing military campaign to corner and crush the Liberation Tigers of Tami= l Ealam (LTTE) has led to a terrible humanitarian crisis in the country. Repo= rts emanating from the island indicate that the Sri Lankan state is on the verg= e of wresting military control over large parts of LTTE territory including the administrative headquarters in Killinochi. While the number of people kille= d so far in the crossfire between the advancing Sri Lankan armed forces is anybo= dy=92s guess, some 500,000 people are estimated to have been displaced and rendere= d homeless in their own land. With the Sri Lankan government not allowing any relief to reach the people in refugee camps, international humanitarian organisations have been forced to leave the battle zones and recently even = UN food convoys have had to return, leaving a vast population in the battle zo= nes on the brink of starvation. =20 =A0=20 Over the last two years the military balance has steadily tilted against the LTTE. Following the collap= se of peace talks and withdrawal of Norway from the peace process, the Mahinda Rajapaksha government seized the opportunity to go for an all-out f= ight to the finish. In the post 9/11 international situation, the LTTE has alrea= dy suffered considerable international isolation with the entire Western and developed world declaring it a banned terrorist organisation. The December = 2004 tsunami had also delivered a crucial blow to the economy and general life i= n the LTTE areas. The magnitude of the disaster was compounded manifold with = the forces of Sinhala chauvinism disrupting the relief and resettlement plans d= rawn up under the Post-Tsunami Operational Management Structure (P-TOMS). A spli= t in LTTE following the desertion of the organisation=92s eastern commander Colo= nel Karuna must have also prompted Colombo =92s decision to push for a final military solution. =20 =A0=20 Even as the Sri Lankan armed forces intensify the war on LTTE, and the death toll keeps mounting, Presid= ent Mahinda Rajapaksha waxed eloquent in the 63rd session of the UN General Assembly in September 2008 on the goals of peace, resettlement and developm= ent. Quoting Isaac Newton, he lamented that the world was building too many wall= s and not enough bridges! He would like the world to believe that his governm= ent was employing military means only against those who were engaged in armed struggle. If it were really so, why has his government forced international relief organisations and humanitarian agencies from the battle zones? =20 =A0=20 The Sri Lankan government must understand that there can be no military solution to the Tamil national question. Even if the LTTE is militarily defeated, the national question wi= ll continue to haunt Sri Lanka . It must also understand that its attempt to impose Sinhala chauvinism as th= e exclusive Sri Lankan identity is doomed to fail. It is a political problem which modern Sri Lanka=20 inherited from the British colonial days, and can only be resolved politica= lly. Following the 1983 pogrom in which Sinhala chauvinists had killed thousands= of Tamils, the LTTE had emerged as the predominant representative of Tamil nationalism in Sri Lanka . In spite of its overwhelming emphasis on armed struggle and the demand for = a separate Tamil Eelam, in the course of the peace talks the LTTE had agreed = to the notion of =91internal=92 self-determination of Tamils within the framew= ork of a federal Sri Lanka . The Sri Lankan government must resume this process and stop the war on Sri Lankan Tamils.=20 =A0=20 The Government of India must take urgent bilateral and multilateral initiative to stop the ongoing civil war in Sri Lanka , bring about an immediate cease-fire and ensure relief and rehabilitation measures for the displaced Tamil people in the battle zones. In recent times several Indian fishermen have also been killed by the Sri Lankan naval forces. India has lacked a consistent policy regarding Sri Lanka =96 initially India was believed to be patronising LTTE while later the Indian Peace Keeping Force (IPKF) got embroiled in a disastrous war with the LTTE itself. Many political forces in Sri Lanka, both among Sinhala and Tamil circles, found the Indian intervention in the 1980s objectionable and smacking of regional hegemonic ambitions of the Indian ruling classes. Since then and especially following the assassination of Rajiv Gandhi in 1991, India has failed to evolve any effective diplomatic response to the civil war in Sri Lanka . The current phase of the war in Sri Lanka does call for an urgent and appropriate Indian response to bring about an immediate cessation of the war and facilitate a negotiated political settlement of the question of Tamil self-determination in Sri Lanka . =20 =A0=20 South Asia=20 =A0=20 Fighting Caste Oppression and Untouchability: A Sri Lankan Experience=20 =A0=20 - S. Sivasegaram.=20 =A0=20 The system of caste persists as an integral part of Hindu society. Colonial rulers let it be and where useful encouraged it. Modernisation made an impact, but did not eliminate i= t. Although the Hindu Varna system is the reference point for its justificatio= n, caste structure and hierarchy vary from region to region. In Sri Lanka , caste is an integral aspect of Sinhala and Tamil societies, and matters in social interactions. Even the Muslims, with claims to a distinct ethnic identity, are tainted by caste, but to a less degree. Untouchability was strictly practiced among the Tamils of the North and less strictly in the E= ast. The Hill Country Tamils of Indian origin are mostly from depressed caste gr= oups and despite caste differences open discrimination has been less prevalent t= han in the North and East. =20 =A0=20 This article is on the struggle against caste oppression in the North, the Jaffna peninsula mainly= , where discrimination and oppression had been strong from pre-colonial times. The caste system in= Sri Lanka differs from that in India in some ways. While the Brahminist ideology holds, the Brahmins play no serious rol= e in caste society; and there are no Kshatriya or Vysya caste groups. Thus, unli= ke in South India , the caste at the peak of the caste hierarchy is the Vellala (cultivator) caste among Tamils and the Govigama, its equivalent, among Sinhalese. The Vellala are around 40% of th= e population of the Jaffna=20 peninsula. The depressed caste groups deemed as =91untouchables=92 form aro= und 30%. The rest belong to middle level caste groups bound by the caste hierarchy.= =20 =A0=20 Although colonial intervention did not dent the caste system, early in the 20th Century missionary schools allowed access to modern education to a few members of the oppressed castes= . But the depressed communities remained backward since even primary educatio= n was denied to their vast majority. Protests against caste oppression and demands for the right to education and better living conditions started in = the early 20th Century with the formation of workers=92 associations and campai= gns for equal treatment. Notably, the Jaffna Youth Congress, a progressive grou= p formed in 1920 and inspired by the Indian independence movement, was suppor= tive of struggles against discrimination.=20 =A0=20 Social reforms, including the introduction of free education, in the run up to independence from colonial rule in 1948 failed to meet the needs of the depressed castes, especially i= n the North, since the Vellala elite dominated the social institutions. The initiation of the left movement in Jaffna=20 in 1937 and the founding of the Communist Party there in 1945 gave fresh impetus to struggles against caste oppression. The Minority Tamils Associat= ion founded in 1943 that organisationally united the depressed castes was a reformist outfit controlled by moderates. Efforts by communists to make the Association take a more militant stand were frustrated by the moderates. Th= us, despite some degree of success of various campaigns, the oppressive caste system and the practice of untouchability remained intact.=20 =A0=20 The coalition government led by the Sri Lanka Freedom Party (SLFP) that came to power in 1956, despite aggravating the national question by making Sinhala the sole official langu= age, introduced significant social reforms. The election in 1956 of P. Kandiah, = the only Tamil communist to be elected MP, helped the oppressed castes of the N= orth in a number of issues. He was instrumental in the passage of the Prevention= of Social Disabilities Act in 1957 that made it punishable to deny anyone acce= ss to public places by reason of caste. The nationalisation of the schools in = 1960 by the SLFP government elected that year loosened the grip of the Vellala e= lite on schools which were earlier under their control. Yet collaboration of the state machinery with the Vellala elite let the law turn a blind eye to continuing acts of systematic oppression, exploitation and humiliation base= d on caste. =20 =A0=20 Social disabilities suffered collectively by the depressed by caste persisted. The Communist Party (CP) = successfully led local struggles against oppression in some issues. The reactionary feud= al elite resented it and directed thugs to attack communists and militant memb= ers of the oppressed community. In response, some leaders of the depressed community prescribed conversion to Buddhism, a move rejected by the CP, fai= led to win popular support.=20 =A0=20 The return to power of the United National Party in 1965 in alliance with the Tamil nationalist Federa= l Party and the Tamil Congress emboldened the upper caste elite to uphold cas= teism. Earlier pledges to open public wells, eating places and temples to all irre= spective of caste were breached, the affected communities had no choice but launch a militant struggle.=20 =A0=20 The split in the CP in 1964 led to opposed approaches to caste oppression. While the revisionists retre= ated to a passive approach, the Marxist Leninists took the initiative to launch = a mass demonstration against untouchability on 21st October 1967 against a background of oppression by the reactionary elite backed by the police. The demonstration with a sizeable participation by members of the =91uppers cas= tes=92 was brutally attacked by the police. The Marxist Leninists broadened the campaign to mobilise the masses and lead them under the banner of the Mass Movement to Eliminate Untouchability, an organisation to fight caste oppres= sion that, unlike earlier caste-based organisations, was open to all progressive people.=20 =A0=20 Mass mobilisation and militant campaigns were launched to win access to public places and facilities that = were denied to depressed communities. Expectedly, the reactionary elite took to criminal violence in the form of arson, murder and assault. And for the fir= st time in the history of the island, oppressed masses resorted to armed actio= n against the combined forces of reaction and the state apparatus. Not only t= he elitist Tamil nationalist parliamentary leaders but also the revisionists denounced the armed action. But support grew even among the =91upper=92 cas= tes, for the campaign which also gained rising sympathy and support from a wide sect= ion of progressive forces across the country, including other nationalities.=20 =A0=20 Attempts by the u