From lnp3@panix.com Wed May 07 13:02:35 2008 Received: from jalapeno.cc.columbia.edu ([128.59.29.5]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JtouQ-0004My-Vi for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Wed, 07 May 2008 13:02:35 -0600 Received: from [128.59.52.253] (dyn-128-59-52-253.dyn.columbia.edu [128.59.52.253]) (user=lnp3 mech=PLAIN bits=0) by jalapeno.cc.columbia.edu (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m47J4kDu014929 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 7 May 2008 15:04:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4821FD4E.6080006@panix.com> Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 15:04:46 -0400 From: Louis Proyect User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed X-No-Spam-Score: Local X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 128.59.29.5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by jalapeno.cc.columbia.edu id m47J4kDu014929 Subject: [Marxism] Was Enron "Green"? X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 19:02:35 -0000 Generally I don=92t have much to say about Spiked online nowadays since=20 the ex-members of the Revolutionary Communist Party in Great Britain=20 have pretty much severed all their connections to the left. Although=20 they are somewhat coy about their ideology, the impartial observer can=20 recognize it immediately as libertarianism without the bellicose foreign=20 policy associated with today=92s Ayn Rand supporters. There are a few exceptions, however-most notably James Heartfield who=20 wrote an interesting review of Rick Kuhn=92s Isaac Deutscher Prize-winnin= g=20 biography of Henryk Grossman, a Marxist economist who had a significant=20 influence on the RCP in the 1980s. Apparently James has a new book out. Titled =93Green Capitalism:=20 Manufacturing Scarcity in an Age of Abundance=93, it contains the kind of= =20 tirades that are the stock-in-trade of Spiked online. But where most=20 contributors to Spiked frame their arguments in nebulous terms of=20 =93progress=94 and =93human development=94, James is more comfortable inv= oking=20 Karl Marx-even if he neglects those aspects of Marx=92s writings that=20 would clash with Spike=92s editorial slant. I am of course referring to=20 Marx=92s deep concern about soil fertility, which was to the 19th century= =20 what climate change is today. While I doubt that I will have either the time or the interest to read=20 James=92s book, I was motivated to write something about an excerpt that=20 appears on the Metamute website. I don=92t know much about this Zine,=20 except that it seems to attract bright young things from the leftwing of=20 the academy. full: http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2008/05/07/was-enron-green/ From thorenstd124@yahoo.com Wed May 07 13:58:56 2008 Received: from web38707.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([209.191.125.83]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Jtpmx-0004X5-Ur for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Wed, 07 May 2008 13:58:56 -0600 Received: (qmail 88210 invoked by uid 60001); 7 May 2008 20:01:03 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: oiNtigoVM1mKs4oQag0AqgYyKhrwCoTn5pCm_5UURmQ0L5otYMBKm2MyuP6inHD8HwHjj5gAKCgE4i5NVKP2HLPKdozoHD3cpDqwFf0K.tVjWD.hlLVstCXTKjw- Received: from [68.35.136.171] by web38707.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 07 May 2008 13:01:03 PDT Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 13:01:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Roger and Allison Kulp To: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu In-Reply-To: <2fa158550805061615p16f67195ma29ed7781a30429a@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <464253.88092.qm@web38707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Subject: Re: [Marxism] Nigeria X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 19:58:56 -0000 If Marxists and socialists the world over were to hold this view,we might never have seen the great strides,and victories that we have,in Venezuela,or Bolivia. We should celebrate these,and concentrate on trying to build local movements wherever possible.I'm saying if we all concentrate on our own little corner of the world,the global struggle will eventually take care of itself.This is just part of the beautiful simplicity of Chavez,and his Bolivarian model.A large par of what Chavez also did,was bring the revolution down to the level of the common person.Which is what we need to do in this country.And in a large way,this comes down to the way ideas are communicated. We will never win over a great many people over,while we are busy spouting flowery 150 year old language,about "the dictatorship of the proletariat".Not in a nation,where a neoliberal,corporatist like Obama,who openly praises Ronald Freakin' Reagan,talks about his "lord and saviour" ,and had Zbignew Brzezinski as a key advisor,is looked upon as a hope for radical change.Not in a nation where Bubba on the couch is losing his job,and his home,and decides who he is going to vote for based on fifteen second commercials,watched through a drunken stupor on,"American Idol". The failures of both capitalism,and imperialism,are coming home to roost in this country.The whole mess may well come crashing down on whoever is elected in November.The country is falling apart,and nothing short of another New Deal,at the very least will even begin to fix it.If Obama gets elected,and the country continues to fall apart,and we are still in Iraqistan,or Iranistan,,and IF we have high profile people on the "liberal" or "progressive" side of the media exposing President Obama,and his corporate ties,the outrage against the Dems will make 2006 look like a picnic. Which means,the timing would be perfect for the People's Revolution we all want to see.And an adapted version of the Chavez Bolivarian model would be as good as any. Roger Néstor Gorojovsky wrote: > The crucial question however is, "What do the Tibetans themselves want?" This is not the Marxist crucial question. The crucial question for a Marxist is "how does the struggle of the Tibetans (or whoever else's struggle) advance or hinder the struggle for socialism the world over"? This question is the BASIC question of Wilsonianism. Not the question of Marxists. And, on the other hand, the second question here is to understand the Tibetan issue as a class issue. The criticisms I received for talking about the Ogoni (which in fact I never did, methinks) is grounded on this consideration. Same applies to "Tibetans". OTOH if I were to accept that question as crucial, then I would be betraying the road to socialist revolution in my own counry since this is exactly the question the British want to be asked as regards the current settlers in Malvinas. Not to speak of asking "what do Israelis want", etc. _That_ question is the BOURGEOIS question on the national issue. ________________________________________________ YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/thorenstd124%40yahoo.com --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. From nmgoro@gmail.com Wed May 07 14:11:12 2008 Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com ([209.85.198.234]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Jtpyq-0004Y5-Ec for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Wed, 07 May 2008 14:11:12 -0600 Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id f6so744088rvb.59 for ; Wed, 07 May 2008 13:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.75.6 with SMTP id c6mr1133459rvl.286.1210191205122; Wed, 07 May 2008 13:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.28.17 with HTTP; Wed, 7 May 2008 13:13:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2fa158550805071313q42965e8bna569ba860ddea313@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 17:13:24 -0300 From: "=?UTF-8?Q?N=C3=A9stor_Gorojovsky?=" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" In-Reply-To: <464253.88092.qm@web38707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline References: <2fa158550805061615p16f67195ma29ed7781a30429a@mail.gmail.com> <464253.88092.qm@web38707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Marxism] Nigeria X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 20:11:12 -0000 SSBmZWFyIHRoZSB3b3JkcyBiZWxvdyBhcmUgZmFyIGZyb20gYW4gYW5zd2VyIHRvIHdoYXQgSSB3 cm90ZS4gTm9yIHRvCndoYXQgSSBiZWxpZXZlLgoKU29ycnksIFImQSBLLiwgSSdtIGFmcmFpZCB5 b3UgZGlkIG5vdCB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIG1lIGF0IGFsbC4+Cj4KPgo+ICBOw6lzdG9yIEdvcm9qb3Zz a3kgPG5tZ29yb0BnbWFpbC5jb20+IHdyb3RlOgo+ICA+ICBUaGUgY3J1Y2lhbCBxdWVzdGlvbiBo b3dldmVyIGlzLCAiV2hhdCBkbyB0aGUgVGliZXRhbnMgdGhlbXNlbHZlcyB3YW50PyIKPgo+ICBU aGlzIGlzIG5vdCB0aGUgTWFyeGlzdCBjcnVjaWFsIHF1ZXN0aW9uLiBUaGUgY3J1Y2lhbCBxdWVz dGlvbiBmb3IgYQo+ICBNYXJ4aXN0IGlzICJob3cgZG9lcyB0aGUgc3RydWdnbGUgb2YgdGhlIFRp YmV0YW5zIChvciB3aG9ldmVyIGVsc2Uncwo+ICBzdHJ1Z2dsZSkgYWR2YW5jZSBvciBoaW5kZXIg dGhlIHN0cnVnZ2xlIGZvciBzb2NpYWxpc20gdGhlIHdvcmxkCj4gIG92ZXIiPyAgVGhpcyBxdWVz dGlvbiBpcyB0aGUgQkFTSUMgcXVlc3Rpb24gb2YgV2lsc29uaWFuaXNtLiBOb3QgdGhlCj4gIHF1 ZXN0aW9uIG9mIE1hcnhpc3RzLiBBbmQsIG9uIHRoZSBvdGhlciBoYW5kLCB0aGUgc2Vjb24K From charlesb@cncl.ci.detroit.mi.us Wed May 07 14:57:13 2008 Received: from cluster-b.mailcontrol.com ([217.68.146.190]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JtqhM-0004c8-Ka; Wed, 07 May 2008 14:57:13 -0600 Received: from gwia.ci.detroit.mi.us (71-159-22-21.detroitmi.gov [71.159.22.21] (may be forged)) by rly15b.srv.mailcontrol.com (MailControl) with ESMTP id m47KxH3t013225; Wed, 7 May 2008 21:59:18 +0100 Received: from Comm-MTA by gwia.ci.detroit.mi.us with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 07 May 2008 16:59:17 -0400 Message-Id: <4821DFD9.84C9.00BF.0@cncl.ci.detroit.mi.us> X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 7.0.1 Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 16:59:05 -0400 From: "Charles Brown" To: , , Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-Scanned-By: MailControl A-08-50-00 (www.mailcontrol.com) on 10.66.0.125 Subject: [Marxism] Dem Pres race X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 20:57:13 -0000 >>> "James=20 So, listers, help out someone who is looking in from outside the US If I understand it right, Obama's appeal is a kind of Blairite (or even Cli= ntonite) transcendence of the 'old politics'. His core base is black and yo= ung, but to show that he is of a different stripe, he has to distance himse= lf from race politics. ^^^^" CB: Distancing from "race politics isn't a different stripe from Clinton. = It was the Repuclicans who have been playing race politics espcielly since= the Nixon Souther strategy. Reaganite Reps centrally rely on racist politi= cs, fomenting racism among white voters. Clinton didn't want race in the ra= ce against the Republicans. Maybe you mean distancing from "Black core base". Better "distancing" hi= mseelf from himself since he _is_ Black. Even better distancing himself fr= om a Jesse Jackson/Al Sharpton sure loser type candidate.=20 Jesse Jackson had a "Rainbow Coalition" theme by the way, so he didn't run= a "Black campaign". Try to follow this. Jackson ran as a left social dem= ocrat ( non-Clinton). But in the US racist twisted dialectic, a candidate = - White or Black; see Kucincich only able to get 5% with the most trenchant= and obviously pro-working class program of anybody- who tries to appeal = to the mass of white workers ( brain warped into Reagan Democrats for 28 ye= ars) on the basis of that pro-working class program are rejected as "tryin= g to help Black people, welfare cheats, affirmative action " and all that c= rap. It's an astonishing testament to the mind control of US ruling class= propaganda over the masses of White workers. Talk about cutting off your = nose to spite your face. Talk about showing everybody racism as the main wa= y that the US ruling class divides the US working class. It is starkly obvi= ous. Anyway, all these definite pronouncements about the "nature" of Obama are j= ust premature. It is _uncertain_ how O will turn out. The word "hope" inc= ludes by definition uncertainty. That's part of why it is an accurate term = here, that and the fact -which I have said repeatedly since O won major Whi= te votes in Iowa - that large numbers of White people are voting for a Blac= k candidate for President makes the word "hope" or "promising" sober and a= ccurate. Not _certainly_, but possibly some good things could come out of= the Obama adventure. O is he best risk for Americans, clearly as compared= with Clinton and McCain. What's wrong with the anti-O position is that it= is stated with such certainty or likelihood that nothing good can come fro= m the O "move", ignoring the previously highly unlikely result of so many W= hite people supporting a Black person for President; and their sticking to= supporting O through Rev. Wright, media twisting the "bitter' comments fr= om actually sympathetic to the working classes plight to make them seem "el= itist"; , the Clintons trying hard to bring out racist attitudes. Large mi= norities of White voters have doggedly stayed with O. At this point it is = actually better that we had Wright and the Clintons test the anti-racist r= evolve of White Americans.It has "vetted" Americans vis-a-vis O on the key= issue of race. I say with Michelle O , I never have been so proud of Americans. By the way,=20 "Michelle O" Michelle, ma belle, These are words, That go together well ^^^^ Hillary hoped to play up her experience, but that has been boxed in to an a= ppeal to older voters against younger, and to white working class voters, a= fraid of change. ^^^^ CB: Yes, Clinton's "experience" in the context of O's "change" challenge i= s the same as "same ole same ole" . O just implies, "experience means no= change , exactly what I'm running against". So, Clintno's theme plays stra= ight into one thing he's winning on. Many are tired of the "experience" the= y have been having. McCain is _real_old, "experienced", a real non-changling.. Mike keeps poin= t to the poll showing most won't vote for somebody McCain's age. Of course, it is uncertain that the change will be at all or will be for t= he better (duh). But it seems many or most people - and quite rationally,no= t maniacally at all- want to roll the dice on change. It's rational as a= first logical step in that the only way to get out of the current mess is = _some_ kind of change. So, Clinton's "experience" position is a loser comin= g right out of the shute. ^^^^^^^ Is that right? And is it right that it would be too problematic for the superdelegates to = overturn Obama's majority of the committed delegates? Does that mean an election between Third Way Obama and McCain pushing a kin= d of old, white resentiment against change? ^^^ CB: ( This is the opposite of the sense of "resentiment". The "white' tradi= tion is the non-slave tradition here) And obviously, literally _all_ the previous experience at the Presidential= level is with "White". Black is inherently a profound change in the US. Ev= erybody knows that in their gut. The notion that the racial "identity" of= the President can make no difference on this is wrong.=20 O's identity/character has the added dimension of having grown up in Hawaii= , some in Indonesia and a father from Kenya ( though absent, O's grew up w= ith significant consciousness of this). He is unusually cosmopolitan for an= American is another source of promise( not certainty) It is not certain that O won't find a 4th Way or at least 3 and =C2=BD. He = may find how to put some substantive diplomacy into foreign policy for exam= ple. For one thing, the US pragmatically needs it. It can't continue indef= initely to hold the whole world at gunpoint. It's insane to crank up a neo-= Cold War with Russia, confront Iran. Bill Richardson , Mexican American O supporter, recently met diplomaticall= y with Chavez, I believe. This higher than average American character This message has been scanned for malware by SurfControl plc. www.surfcontr= ol.com From michael@ecst.csuchico.edu Wed May 07 15:26:47 2008 Received: from [132.241.6.19] (helo=bengal.ecst.csuchico.edu) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Jtr9z-0004gK-0M for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Wed, 07 May 2008 15:26:47 -0600 Received: from tiglon.ecst.csuchico.edu (tiglon.ecst.csuchico.edu [132.241.6.18]) by bengal.ecst.csuchico.edu (8.13.8/8.13.4) with ESMTP id m47LSxP0025004 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 7 May 2008 14:28:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tiglon.ecst.csuchico.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tiglon.ecst.csuchico.edu (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m47LT5EC029306; Wed, 7 May 2008 14:29:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from michael@localhost) by tiglon.ecst.csuchico.edu (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8/Submit) id m47LT5YP029305; Wed, 7 May 2008 14:29:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 14:29:05 -0700 From: Michael Perelman To: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Message-ID: <20080507212905.GA29296@tiglon.ecst.csuchico.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-09) X-Scanned-By: milter-sender/1.13.911.911 (bengal [132.241.6.19]); Wed, 07 May 2008 14:28:59 -0700 Cc: pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu Subject: [Marxism] Lou is too hard on the environmentalists X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 21:26:47 -0000 Lou, going on a corporate board is not that bad compared to John Bryson, who went from NRDC to head up So. Cal. Edison. -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu michaelperelman.wordpress.com From ok.president@gmail.com Wed May 07 16:20:49 2008 Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com ([74.125.46.29]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Jts0G-0004nL-R5 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Wed, 07 May 2008 16:20:48 -0600 Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 9so342678ywe.29 for ; Wed, 07 May 2008 15:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.50.3 with SMTP id x3mr2692253ybx.31.1210198973551; Wed, 07 May 2008 15:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.205.20 with HTTP; Wed, 7 May 2008 15:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <908b689f0805071522u19bcdb60y5bfb6b3fb81ba320@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 18:22:53 -0400 From: "Ruthless Critic of All that Exists" Sender: ok.president@gmail.com To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <15161189.569911210141031033.JavaMail.jjonas@nic.fi> X-Google-Sender-Auth: dc4be70eabe0cd7b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Subject: Re: [Marxism] More on Rolf Martens X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 22:20:49 -0000 On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 6:47 AM, Haines Brown wrote: > > > If we attach the name "Maoism" to individuals and movements, > presumably that implies a small number of cogent descriptions of > certain ideas or policies that distinguish Mao. So what are they? > Is there any consensus as to what they are? I can only speak for how the word is understood in India (and possibly Nepal, where the maoists are supposed to be aligned ideologically, to some extent, with their Indian counterparts). In India, people understand maoism to mean primarily: 1) A departure from the "classical marxist-leninist" idea that only the industrial worker is the agent of revolution; maoists tend to believe that peasants too can be the primary agent of revolution, especially landless peasants or small farmers. A corollary is that revolution is possible even in agrarian, underdeveloped countries like China or India. 2) The doctrine of "the countryside surrounding the cities": in this thesis, the revolution begins in the agrarian countryside and gradually encircles the cities. From steffie.brooks@gmail.com Wed May 07 17:08:37 2008 Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com ([209.85.198.237]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JtskX-0004qF-Em for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Wed, 07 May 2008 17:08:37 -0600 Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id f6so819359rvb.59 for ; Wed, 07 May 2008 16:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.13.10 with SMTP id 10mr2455510wam.106.1210201850227; Wed, 07 May 2008 16:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.127.4 with HTTP; Wed, 7 May 2008 16:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <270c45b70805071610t425539a4yb7b6d4b7ec1e7552@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 18:10:50 -0500 From: "Steffie Brooks" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Subject: [Marxism] Fw: fw: Landau and Farber on Cuba X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 23:08:37 -0000 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: To: "Samuel Farber" Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 14:17:04 -0400 Subject: Fw: Landau and Farber on Cuba Dear friends: I am enclosing the links to an exchange between Saul Landau and I on the current situation in Cuba. It was just published by the Internet publication Foreign Policy in Focus sponsored by the Institute for Policy Studies in Washington. Greetings from Samuel Farber http://fpif.org/fpiftxt/5206 http://fpif.org/fpiftxt/5205 http://fpif.org/fpiftxt/5208 From brownh@hartford-hwp.com Wed May 07 17:14:43 2008 Received: from mail14.atl.registeredsite.com ([216.247.37.28] ident=[U2FsdGVkX1+N8sONxhJz2zFsxc9t22DfBk781DqBk5w=]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JtsqQ-0004qZ-Hb for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Wed, 07 May 2008 17:14:42 -0600 Received: from mymail.myregisteredsite.com (wmailnode1d.webmail.web.com [209.237.134.169]) by mail14.atl.registeredsite.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with SMTP id m47NGsfe001338 for ; Wed, 7 May 2008 19:16:54 -0400 Received: (qmail 2158 invoked by uid 80); 7 May 2008 23:16:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO teufel.hartford-hwp.com) (brownh@hartford-hwp.com@64.252.172.41) by 209.237.134.178 with ESMTPA; 7 May 2008 23:16:54 -0000 Received: from brownh by teufel.hartford-hwp.com with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JtssX-0001cQ-S2; Wed, 07 May 2008 19:16:53 -0400 From: Haines Brown To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition In-reply-to: <908b689f0805071522u19bcdb60y5bfb6b3fb81ba320@mail.gmail.com> (ok.president+marxml@gmail.com) References: <15161189.569911210141031033.JavaMail.jjonas@nic.fi> <908b689f0805071522u19bcdb60y5bfb6b3fb81ba320@mail.gmail.com> Message-Id: Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 19:16:53 -0400 Subject: Re: [Marxism] More on Rolf Martens X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 23:14:45 -0000 > I can only speak for how the word is understood in India (and > possibly Nepal, where the maoists are supposed to be aligned > ideologically, to some extent, with their Indian counterparts). > > In India, people understand maoism to mean primarily: > > 1) A departure from the "classical marxist-leninist" idea that only > the industrial worker is the agent of revolution; maoists tend to > believe that peasants too can be the primary agent of revolution, > especially landless peasants or small farmers. A corollary is that > revolution is possible even in agrarian, underdeveloped countries > like China or India. > > 2) The doctrine of "the countryside surrounding the cities": in this > thesis, the revolution begins in the agrarian countryside and > gradually encircles the cities. Thank you. What you say is very interesting. As for point (1), the critical issue I understand to be like this. "Classical" Marxism was based on the industrial proletariat. In the case of China, the alliance between peasants and workers was not just a short time tactic of convenience (uniting the contradictions of both nascent capitalism and dying feudalism), but was a long term commitment to the idea that the transition from capitalism to communism would be as much ushered in by peasants as by (industrial) workers and that the communist future addresses peasant needs as much as industrial worker needs. I don't want to get involved in a big debate over this issue, but only to express my own feeling that to make peasants equivalent to workers as a revolutionary class in relation to capitalism seems fundamentally contrary to what Marx was up to and seems to reduce the transformation to merely political struggle. However, if this represents the Indian-Nepalese consensus, I'd have to agree that it seems to be movement distinct from Marx and Lenin and therefore deserving of the term "Maoism". As for point (2), I'd come to the opposite conclusion. If we put aside the issue I raised regarding point (1), the countryside surrounding the cities seems primarily a tactical matter suited to time, place and circumstance, and hardly supports the notion of a distinct movement spoken of as Maoism. But this seems a secondary point, and if the Maoists in India and Nepal typically hold the peasantry to be a revolutionary class in the same sense that the working class is, then that seems very important. I'm assuming here that "peasant" means a petty private agricultural producer rather than an agricultural wage earner. If this assumption is incorrect, then that would change my assessment of the matter. Haines Brown From ok.president@gmail.com Wed May 07 17:40:20 2008 Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com ([74.125.46.30]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JttFE-0004s2-2W for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Wed, 07 May 2008 17:40:20 -0600 Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 9so359274ywe.29 for ; Wed, 07 May 2008 16:42:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.69.41 with SMTP id r41mr2752771yba.52.1210203740715; Wed, 07 May 2008 16:42:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.205.20 with HTTP; Wed, 7 May 2008 16:42:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <908b689f0805071642s1658505ema7866434f13c7cb0@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 19:42:20 -0400 From: "Ruthless Critic of All that Exists" Sender: ok.president@gmail.com To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <15161189.569911210141031033.JavaMail.jjonas@nic.fi> <908b689f0805071522u19bcdb60y5bfb6b3fb81ba320@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 5d8b33fe0a31409f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Subject: Re: [Marxism] More on Rolf Martens X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 23:40:20 -0000 On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 7:16 PM, Haines Brown wrote: > > > I'm assuming here that "peasant" means a petty private agricultural > producer rather than an agricultural wage earner. If this assumption > is incorrect, then that would change my assessment of the matter. In India at least, there is little class difference between a perennially landless agricultural laborer and a "small farmer" holding a tiny plot of land. Both are usually marginalized, and in fact, the tiny-plot-owning farmer may, in addition to cultivating his tiny plot, also sell his labor as agricultural wage-labor to supplement the insufficient income from his tiny plot. From glparramatta@greenleft.org.au Wed May 07 17:46:44 2008 Received: from mx.mail.com.au ([203.17.36.233]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JttLQ-0004sk-CH for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Wed, 07 May 2008 17:46:44 -0600 Received: from [203.17.36.17] (helo=cia.com.au) by mx.mail.com.au with smtp (Exim 4.34) id 1JttQE-0002tN-Cz for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Thu, 08 May 2008 09:51:42 +1000 Received: (qmail 16284 invoked from network); 7 May 2008 23:50:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.1.1.2?) (58.108.75.196) by cia.com.au with SMTP; 7 May 2008 23:50:30 -0000 Message-ID: <48223FE4.5010704@greenleft.org.au> Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 09:48:52 +1000 From: glparramatta User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.14 (Windows/20071210) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenl >> greenl >> AAA: GreenLeft_discussion@yahoogroups.com" , marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu, AA: debate Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Marxism] Adding insult to injury: Bush says starving India eats too much | Links X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 23:46:44 -0000 Adding insult to injury: Bush says starving India eats too much By *Kavita Krishnan* May 7, 2008 -- Karl Marx, born on 5 May, 1818, nearly two centuries ago, had in 1867 laid bare the ``intimate connection between the pangs of hunger of the most industrious layers of the working class, and the extravagant consumption, coarse or refined, of the rich, for which capitalist accumulation is the basis'' (/Capital/ Vol. 1, Ch. 25). In May 2008, nearly a century and a half later, as we hear Emperor Bush hold forth on global hunger, we are reminded that capitalism and global wealth remains just as intimately wedded to hunger. The global policeman Bush, in the time-honoured traditions of the backyard bully, has long harboured the habit of dictating to nations who their friends and enemies should be. Now, he has taken to telling nations how much they should eat, and of wagging a disapproving finger at poor nations whose middle class has made some improvements in its diet. Bush's sentiments (and those of his lieutenant Condoleezza Rice) reek of callous contempt for the world's poor. Full article: http://links.org.au/node/393 Subscribe free to /Links - International Journal of Socialist Renewal/ - at http://www.feedblitz.com/f/?Sub=343373 From glparramatta@greenleft.org.au Wed May 07 19:53:46 2008 Received: from mx.mail.com.au ([203.17.36.233]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JtvKL-000541-Rr for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Wed, 07 May 2008 19:53:46 -0600 Received: from [203.17.36.17] (helo=cia.com.au) by mx.mail.com.au with smtp (Exim 4.34) id 1JtvPC-0001g5-6G for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Thu, 08 May 2008 11:58:46 +1000 Received: (qmail 6165 invoked from network); 8 May 2008 01:57:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?10.1.1.2?) (58.108.75.196) by cia.com.au with SMTP; 8 May 2008 01:57:34 -0000 Message-ID: <48225DAC.9080009@greenleft.org.au> Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 11:55:56 +1000 From: glparramatta User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.14 (Windows/20071210) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition References: <4820678C.9080409@panix.com> In-Reply-To: <4820678C.9080409@panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [Marxism] South Africa X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 01:53:46 -0000 Somebody just posted this at the Links site (http://links.org.au/node/348#comment-554). I don't have the original URL. Le Monde diplomatique, May 2008 'The world cup will be our chance to make our voices heard' Whose South Africa? South Africa will host the World Cup in 2010 so construction – and corruption – is booming. But almost none of the building or the money can be accessed by the poor who live in shantytowns without proper water, sanitation or electricity. These inequalities could be a major issue in the 2009 presidential election. By Philippe Rivičre More at http://links.org.au/node/348#comment-554 Louis Proyect wrote: > If people are interested in the economics of post-apartheid South > Africa, I recommend this: > > http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=982805 > > Poverty and Well-Being in Post-Apartheid South Africa: an Overview of > Data, Outcomes and Policy > > H. BHORAT: University of Cape Town - Development Policy Research Unit > > RAVI KANBUR: Cornell University - Department of Applied Economics and > Management; Centre for Economic Policy Research (CEPR) > From jbustelo@gmail.com Wed May 07 20:29:24 2008 Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com ([74.125.46.29]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Jtvsp-00055j-A3 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Wed, 07 May 2008 20:29:24 -0600 Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 9so392161ywe.29 for ; Wed, 07 May 2008 19:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.79.22 with SMTP id c22mr2844626ybb.160.1210213888419; Wed, 07 May 2008 19:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from albanta ( [65.6.133.218]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 5sm4971671ywl.4.2008.05.07.19.31.20 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 07 May 2008 19:31:27 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joaquin Bustelo" To: "'Robb Chavez'" , "'Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition'" References: <13014-48200F7D-6860@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net> Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 22:29:24 -0400 Message-ID: <012001c8b0b3$5939bd90$040ba8c0@albanta> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 In-Reply-To: <13014-48200F7D-6860@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net> Thread-Index: AcivTuHCaMyU55XjS/+fMoWoJbEC2gBZDJTg Subject: Re: [Marxism] Racism: Obama--Pot. Kettle. Black X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 02:29:24 -0000 Robb, Feel free to post your criticisms to the list. I see no reason to have a private discussion over these issues. Joaqu=EDn -----Original Message----- From: Robb Chavez [mailto:xcruz@webtv.net]=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 3:58 AM To: jbustelo@gmail.com Cc: xcruz@webtv.net Subject: Racism: Obama--Pot. Kettle. Black Joaquin, I think that you are a pernicious influence on the Presidential debate. You've taken what were previously batty, but harmless abstractions on = the national question, and turned them into brickbats for the Obama = campaign's ugly "racism" slurs against Hillary Clinton. I read your ever-slimier = posts on the Marxism list, and am horrified at how far a large segment of the "Left" (Sirota, Giordano, Kos) has sunk in its mindless idolatry of the _idea_ of Obama. To think that a Cubano, a "Marxist," no less, would stoop so low. You = are beginning to resemble more the Miami gusanos in your tone and mendacity, than any supporter of the Cuban Revolution. You are playing with social dynamite. Robb Chavez=20 From Dbachmozart@aol.com Wed May 07 20:35:21 2008 Received: from imo-d21.mx.aol.com ([205.188.144.207]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Jtvya-00056C-4k for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Wed, 07 May 2008 20:35:21 -0600 Received: from Dbachmozart@aol.com by imo-d21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r9.4.) id w.cb6.2bd963f5 (39329) for ; Wed, 7 May 2008 22:37:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Dbachmozart@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 22:37:12 EDT To: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 9.0 VR sub 5006 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Subject: [Marxism] Black Agenda Report and Obama X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 02:35:21 -0000 Running to the Right - Obama and the DLC Strategy <_http://www.blackagendareport.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6 18&Itemid=1_ (http://www.blackagendareport.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=618&Itemid=1) > "Just shut up and let him win!" <_http://www.blackagendareport.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6 10&Itemid=1_ (http://www.blackagendareport.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=610&Itemid=1) > All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860) **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) From Dbachmozart@aol.com Wed May 07 20:46:08 2008 Received: from imo-d21.mx.aol.com ([205.188.144.207]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Jtw92-00056x-6w for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Wed, 07 May 2008 20:46:08 -0600 Received: from Dbachmozart@aol.com by imo-d21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r9.4.) id w.bf8.2c830c6a (39329) for ; Wed, 7 May 2008 22:48:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Dbachmozart@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 22:48:11 EDT To: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 9.0 VR sub 5006 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Subject: [Marxism] The European Right's Powerful Push X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 02:46:08 -0000 =20 _http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/050708G.shtml_=20 (http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/050708G.shtml) =20 By Arielle Thedrel=20 Le Figaro=20 Monday 05 May 2008=20 Does Boris Johnson's victory in the London mayoral contest portend a Tory=20 victory in the British legislative elections that must take place between n= ow=20 and 2010? Regardless, it tallies with European electorates' more general=20 movement to the right. In London, as in Italy, the right has just resumed p= ower.=20 It was already in control in Germany, the Netherlands, and, in Scandinavian= =20 countries, of Denmark, and also of Sweden, long presented as a bastion of=20 social democracy. This shift to the right also holds for Eastern Europe.=20 Conservative or [neo]Liberal parties have been elected in Warsaw, Prague, t= he Baltic=20 countries, Bucharest. They have the wind in their sails in Hungary, where t= he=20 left in power is in its death throes as the 2010 legislative elections=20 approach. =20 Virtually alone, Spain seems to resist. However, Jos=E9 Luis Zapatero's=20 election owes much to the tactical errors committed by his right wing rival= s during=20 the March elections, as well as to their anachronistic takes on social=20 issues.=20 So the phenomenon is as extensive as it is spectacular and the wear and tea= r=20 of being in power - which obtains most notably for Great Britain, governed=20 by Labor since 1997 - does not suffice to explain it. "In the background,"=20 emphasizes Georges Mink, Research Director at ISP-CNRS, "there are enormous= =20 economic and social changes, the wilting of ideological certainties and - s= ince=20 the fall of the Berlin Wall - the appearance of new threats such as=20 immigration."=20 Transformations to which the left has yet to produce a convincing response:= =20 for the right's success is undoubtedly based on the failure of the social=20 democratic model. "Globalization," Corinne Deloy, researcher at the=20 Robert-Schuman Foundation, explains, "has made the social software obsolete= . That's=20 especially true now that - with the economic crisis we've entered into - th= ere's=20 nothing left to redistribute. Suddenly, people trust the right more to find= =20 solutions to problems that called the left's competence into question, for=20 example, such primary themes as the demographic aging of European societies= and=20 retirement financing."=20 The right has profited from Social Democracy's decline, but so have more=20 radical movements on the left: witness Olivier Besancenot's breakthrough in= =20 France, but also that of the Socialist Party in the Netherlands, which beca= me the=20 third power in that country in 2006, and of the People's Socialist Party in= =20 Denmark (which garnered 13 percent of the votes in last November's=20 elections), or, still better, of Die Linke in Germany (a coalition that bri= ngs together=20 former DDR communists, unions and hard-line purist socialists).=20 If the right appears better armed to confront the shock of globalization,=20 it's also true that it has transformed itself by betting, to use Georges Mi= nk's=20 expression, on "ideological confusion." To mobilize voters, the right has,=20 as Corinne Deloy reminds us, borrowed from the left: "In spite of oppositio= n=20 from part of the CDU, Angela Merkel has exploited certain social themes suc= h=20 as women's status and child care. In general, the right strives to retool t= he=20 social model defended by the left in a rational manner."=20 It has also cannibalized themes that traditionally belonged to the far=20 right: the security issue, protection of [national] identity and immigratio= n. In=20 Italy, the new mayor of Rome, Gianni Alemanno (National Alliance), is the=20 poster child for that strategy. In Hesse, the CDU didn't hesitate to exploi= t=20 populist themes in the January regional elections. In the former Communist=20 countries, where the welfare state reigned up until the end of the 1980s, t= he=20 phenomenon was even more brutal. These countries' entry into the European U= nion in=20 2004 coincided with the emergence of a nationalist and openly anti-European= =20 right. Even today, in Prague, President Vaclav Klaus refuses to hoist the=20 European flag alongside the national flag. =20 -------- =20 Arielle Thedrel is a star reporter in le Figaro's international division.=20 =20 ____________________________________ Translation: Truthout French language editor _Leslie Thatcher_=20 (mailto:leslie@truthout.org) .=20 All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it i= s=20 violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." Arthur =20 Schopenhauer (1788-1860) **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family=20 favorites at AOL Food. =20 (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=3Daolfod00030000000001) From johnedmundson@paradise.net.nz Wed May 07 22:02:54 2008 Received: from smtp3.clear.net.nz ([203.97.33.64]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JtxLK-0005Ao-9x for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Wed, 07 May 2008 22:02:54 -0600 Received: from [121.72.251.108] (121-72-251-108.cable.telstraclear.net [121.72.251.108]) by smtp3.clear.net.nz (CLEAR Net Mail) with ESMTP id <0K0J00H487CDSC20@smtp3.clear.net.nz> for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Thu, 08 May 2008 16:05:03 +1200 (NZST) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 16:06:56 +1200 From: John In-reply-to: <270c45b70805071610t425539a4yb7b6d4b7ec1e7552@mail.gmail.com> To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition Message-id: <1210219616.5748.11.camel@john-desktop> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.12.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE References: <270c45b70805071610t425539a4yb7b6d4b7ec1e7552@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Marxism] Fw: fw: Landau and Farber on Cuba X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 04:02:54 -0000 On Wed, 2008-05-07 at 18:10 -0500, Steffie Brooks posted a dialogue between Samuel Farber and Saul Landau: In the article in the third link, Samuel Farber wrote: "There are 200-300 political prisoners in Cuba today; the great major= ity of these have been jailed for activities of an entirely peaceful political nature. As recently as April 21, 10 women belonging to the organization =E2=80=9CWomen in White=E2=80=9D were roughed up and arr= ested when they were peacefully demonstrating in support of their imprisoned relatives..." I am not an expert on Cuba but this comment strikes me as, at best a poor example, at worst, disingenuous. As far as I am aware, the 10 wo= men referred to here were delivered back to their homes, not to prison. I may be wrong about this but if true, the reference to them in the context of a claim about hundreds of political prisoners languishing = in Cuban prisons is, as I say, disingenuous. He concludes with: "A socialism without democracy and civil liberties, where equality is limited to sharing poverty, is little different from a beehive with a Queen Bee in command." This suggests that Cuban society functions for the benefit and enrichment of the Castro brothers. While various right wing rags atte= mpt to claim that the Castros have squirrelled away vast fortunes in overseas bank accounts, I was not aware that there was much serious evidence for this. I am surprised to see a leftist, albeit not a Fidelista, hinting at such a state of affairs. This is frustrating as I am always interested in hearing informed comment from the left on Cuba, both sympathetic and critical. Stateme= nts like the above, which appear to be willful distortions, leave me unwilling to accept other claims in Samuel Farber's piece. Cheers, John From ffeldman@bellatlantic.net Wed May 07 23:11:26 2008 Received: from vms173003pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.3]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JtyPe-0005Fa-Fz for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Wed, 07 May 2008 23:11:26 -0600 Received: from office1pc ([151.198.122.16]) by vms173003.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0K0J00KJIADTH62E@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Thu, 08 May 2008 00:10:42 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 01:13:47 -0400 From: "Fred Feldman" To: Message-id: <000001c8b0ca$4be0df90$6401a8c0@office1pc> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thread-index: AciwykrpdduofoxWQE2IvCNC6AJjMQ== Subject: Re: [Marxism] Racism: Obama--Pot. Kettle. Black X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 05:11:26 -0000 Joaquin submitted the following by Robb Chavez: I think that you are a pernicious influence on the Presidential debate. You've taken what were previously batty, but harmless abstractions on the national question, and turned them into brickbats for the Obama campaign's ugly "racism" slurs against Hillary Clinton. I read your ever-slimier posts on the Marxism list, and am horrified at how far a large segment of the "Left" (Sirota, Giordano, Kos) has sunk in its mindless idolatry of the _idea_ of Obama. To think that a Cubano, a "Marxist," no less, would stoop so low. You are beginning to resemble more the Miami gusanos in your tone and mendacity, than any supporter of the Cuban Revolution. You are playing with social dynamite. Fred comments: Well, my first thought when I read this was, Hey, what about me! I'm as bad as he is. That was, not uncharacteristically, egocentric. Obviously Robb Chavez has ties with Joaquin from Latino and other struggles that I do not share. He didn't intend to hurt my feelings. It strikes me at first read that Chavez's starting point is defense of Clinton against the racism charges. I don't know if that is a reflection of support for Clinton or has some other motivation, though I suspect it might. Without a long song and dance, I will say that I consider the racist character of the Clinton campaign to be self-evident, both in the loss of the Black vote and the single minded fight for the white supposedly blue-collar, and definitely more alienated from Blacks vote. And also by her tendency to stereotype white workers who support Obama -- and the vote clearly shows there are many of them, at least one-third -- as though they were just "latte liberal" professors and business executives. This was the organic nature of Clintonian triangulation once the Blacks abandoned them. The Clinton-Democratic Party strategy of the 90s and beyond was based on triangulating away from the Black, organized labor and liberal base toward those whose alienation from the Democrats took the form above all that they were pro-Black and thus elitist (which most capitalist politicians are of course, if not all), antiwhite, and by reason of being antiwhite, anti-"American". Once the Blacks walked out from under the Clintons, they were left primarily with the relatively anti-Black white base to rest on, and they have done so. This has been the core of their campaigns in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Indiana, and coming up, West Virginia. This was reinforced after Edwards dropped out of the race, eliminating the more populist "prolabor," and non-race-baiting competitor for the white vote. They no longer triangulate. The whites who are more anti-Black or suspicious of Blacks or afraid of Blacks are now their main base. I'm sure they wish they were still on the reservation, but they are not, at least as far as the Clintons are concerned. However, I thought the most important comment Chavez made was, "You are playing with social dynamite." In essence, I believe he hit the nail on the head, although I would like to think that neither Joaquin nor I is "playing." We both understand that revolution is not a tea party. But that is the way I also see the determined and stubborn response of the Black community to Obama campaign, once they saw he could get a significant body of white and other support. And I would point out that a large, hard core of his white support has also proved stubbornly resistant to the race-baiting campaigns against him, the Rev. Wright, etc. Yes, I think this is a signal that social dynamite is accumulating at the foundations. I don't think we should play with it, I think we should turn toward it. This doesn't necessarily mean supporting Obama in my opinion -- I support Cynthia McKinney's valuable propaganda effort to advance a more fighting perspective -- but it certainly puts a serious priority in fighting the campaign to bar his election on fundamentally racial grounds: "unelectable," Rev. Wright, Bill Ayers, Farrakhan, et al. You refer to Joaquin's "batty, but harmless abstractions on the national question." Here again I have to claim my aliquot part of the criticism. Following are the two fundamental conceptions that have come to guide a lot of my thinking and action (to the extent that I am still able to be active) on the Black question and the national question more generally in the United States. Anyone is free to regard them as batty, but I can assure you on personal knowledge, that they are NOT intended to be harmless: (1) What is the national territory of the Black nation in the United States of America? The national territory of the Black nation in the United States of America is the continental territory of the United States of America. (2) What is the political destiny and objective of the struggle of the Black nationality in the United States of America? The political destiny and objective of the struggle of the Black nationality in the United States of America is state power in the United States of America. This is deliberately not only algebraic, but even a bit oracular, and I admit I am not prepared to answer any questions at all about precisely how this tendency will play itself out. It is deeply rooted (maybe since the first recorded arrival of Black slaves in 1619), as deeply rooted as "white privilege." And US history is not simply a tale of oppression and racism, but quite fundamentally a tale of struggle against oppression and of the fight against racism. Failure to grasp this social conflict as an opportunity, and not just a sad tale of division and American backwardness, has always been a crippling factor on the left, and a weakness of even the best "white skin privilege" histories and theories (Theodore Allen's, for instance). These tend tosee the presence of Blacks primarily as a source and mainstay of reaction in this country, whereas it is much more fundamentally a source and mainstay of revolutionary possibilities. From jbustelo@gmail.com Wed May 07 23:35:39 2008 Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com ([74.125.46.31]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Jtyn5-0005HO-Iy for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Wed, 07 May 2008 23:35:39 -0600 Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 9so421732ywe.29 for ; Wed, 07 May 2008 22:37:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.72.11 with SMTP id u11mr2991771yba.122.1210225068733; Wed, 07 May 2008 22:37:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from albanta ( [65.6.133.218]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 5sm5225300ywl.4.2008.05.07.22.37.45 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 07 May 2008 22:37:46 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joaquin Bustelo" To: "'Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition'" References: <000001c8b0ca$4be0df90$6401a8c0@office1pc> Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 01:37:44 -0400 Message-ID: <012701c8b0cd$a4c99e00$040ba8c0@albanta> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 In-Reply-To: <000001c8b0ca$4be0df90$6401a8c0@office1pc> Thread-Index: AciwykrpdduofoxWQE2IvCNC6AJjMQAAUTQw Subject: Re: [Marxism] Racism: Obama--Pot. Kettle. Black X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 05:35:39 -0000 Fred comments: "Well, my first thought when I read this was, Hey, what about me! I'm as bad as he is. That was, not uncharacteristically, egocentric. Obviously Robb Chavez has ties with Joaquin from Latino and other struggles that I do not share. He didn't intend to hurt my feelings." Actually, maybe I'm not recognizing the person with the name but I've got no recollection of who this comrade might be. So I'm not so sure he meant no disrespect. Fred: "Without a long song and dance, I will say that I consider the racist character of the Clinton campaign to be self-evident, both in the loss of the Black vote and the single minded fight for the white supposedly blue-collar, and definitely more alienated from Blacks vote." * * * And you're not the only one. Look at this from the NY Daily News: Ugly truth why Hillary Clinton won't quit BY THOMAS M. DeFRANK DAILY NEWS WASHINGTON BUREAU Wednesday, May 7th 2008, 4:00 AM While the case for Hillary Clinton to stay in the race is shakier than ever, one ugly reason for staying in could be found Tuesday amid the ruddy, sun-kissed Hoosiers who cheered her on to victory at the Indianapolis Speedway. With Clinton posing alongside pioneering Indy speedster Sarah Fisher, there were almost no African-Americans to be seen. Many in the white, working-class crowd were simply not ready to back Barack Obama - for reasons that are disturbing. "I'm kind of still up in the air between McCain and Hillary," said Jason Jenkins, 32, who cited information from a hoax e-mail as a reason to spurn Obama. "I'll be honest with you. Barack scares the hell out of me," he said. "He swore on the Koran." Obama did manage to pull in many white voters, but still encountered similar sentiments from a man who refused to shake his hand at a diner in Greenwood, Ind. "I can't stand him," the man said. "He's a Muslim. He's not even pro-American as far as I'm concerned." * * * Full is here: Fred: "The political destiny and objective of the struggle of the Black nationality in the United States of America is state power in the United States of America." What you say here makes sense, and I'll admit I'd never quite framed it with that much clarity. But I think it is right. I've been wording it in terms of the democratic right to participation, representation, inclusion and so on, but there is also the state power side of the national question, although in terms of how traditionally it is conceived, this just doesn't quite fit. But it makes sense to me, perhaps because of the inseparable intertwining of the class and national questions, i.e., a separate Black state is hardly conceivable carved out of the current U.S. state, it makes sense only presupposing the destruction of that state. Joaquin From ok.president@gmail.com Wed May 07 23:42:35 2008 Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com ([74.125.46.28]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Jtytn-0005II-OQ for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Wed, 07 May 2008 23:42:35 -0600 Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 9so422918ywe.29 for ; Wed, 07 May 2008 22:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.1 with SMTP id 1mr3028989ybk.7.1210225471405; Wed, 07 May 2008 22:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.205.20 with HTTP; Wed, 7 May 2008 22:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <908b689f0805072244i5012748al4810badab8b4717f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 01:44:31 -0400 From: "Ruthless Critic of All that Exists" Sender: ok.president@gmail.com To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20070302114435.02d9e5e0@pop.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <6.2.0.14.0.20070302114435.02d9e5e0@pop.panix.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 31e46b2f0c9f9576 Subject: Re: [Marxism] Gilbert Achcar on Lebanon X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 05:42:36 -0000 On Fri, Mar 2, 2007 at 12:44 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: > http://www.isreview.org/issues/52/achcar.shtml May 8, 2008 Clashes in General Strike in Lebanon By NADA BAKRI BEIRUT, Lebanon =97 Supporters of the Iranian-backed group Hezbollah, trying to enforce a general strike called by labor unions, clashed with government supporters and blocked roads in Beirut on Wednesday, escalating tensions as the country remained mired in its worst political crisis since the 1975-1990 civil war. Hezbollah [...] blocked roads with burning tires and garbage cans, and set cars on fire to enforce a strike protesting government economic policies and demanding higher minimum wages. [...] From Ozleft@optusnet.com.au Thu May 08 00:50:15 2008 Received: from mail09.syd.optusnet.com.au ([211.29.132.190]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1JtzxH-0005Mj-Db for Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Thu, 08 May 2008 00:50:15 -0600 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (c211-30-19-201.rivrw2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [211.30.19.201]) (authenticated sender spainter) by mail09.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id m486qKDK003103 for ; Thu, 8 May 2008 16:52:22 +1000 Message-ID: <4822A328.7050802@optusnet.com.au> Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 16:52:24 +1000 From: Ozleft User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Marxism] Australian Labor Party ranks take high ground in privatisation battle X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 06:50:16 -0000 Another banker joins the Costa-Iemma cheer squad http://tinyurl.com/5do6ss From ok.president@gmail.com Thu May 08 00:50:45 2008 Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com ([74.125.46.31]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Jtzxl-0005Mz-Ba for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Thu, 08 May 2008 00:50:45 -0600 Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 9so433140ywe.29 for ; Wed, 07 May 2008 23:52:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.11.1 with SMTP id 1mr3080686ybk.5.1210229569656; Wed, 07 May 2008 23:52:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.205.20 with HTTP; Wed, 7 May 2008 23:52:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <908b689f0805072352q3b02da8fq7bf31b2101a28840@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 02:52:49 -0400 From: "Ruthless Critic of All that Exists" Sender: ok.president@gmail.com To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" In-Reply-To: <001b01c8affb$a1aada40$6401a8c0@office1pc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <001b01c8affb$a1aada40$6401a8c0@office1pc> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 8f9057d4ab316873 Subject: Re: [Marxism] Philadelphia cops caught in act of brutalizing three X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 06:50:45 -0000 On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 12:34 AM, Fred Feldman w= rote: > The article below says nothing about the race of the victims of this poli= ce > attack, but I will make a wild stab that they were Black. I will make > available more facts as and if they come out. Video of beating is at: May 8, 2008 Police Beating of Suspects Is Taped by TV Station in Philadelphia By JON HURDLE PHILADELPHIA =97 About 12 police officers were videotaped on Monday beating three men stopped in response to a drug-related shooting, and six of the officers have been removed from patrols, Police Commissioner Charles H. Ramsey said Wednesday. In the incident, captured by a Fox TV helicopter, officers surrounded a car carrying the three men. They were pulled from the car, and two were kicked and punched on the ground by officers on the driver's side. The third man was beaten by other officers on the passenger side. [...] Video of beating is at: From e.c.apling@btinternet.com Thu May 08 03:25:29 2008 Received: from smtp811.mail.ird.yahoo.com ([217.146.188.71]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Ju2NV-0005Zo-ER for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Thu, 08 May 2008 03:25:29 -0600 Received: (qmail 29348 invoked from network); 8 May 2008 09:27:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO PaddyPC) (e.c.apling@btinternet.com@217.42.32.60 with login) by smtp811.mail.ird.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 May 2008 09:27:34 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: hRPO2uYVM1n6tFO8yW1_403SCmAuouLcxQJJtdI89UuGSaOU8AN5QeDho_0YEYw6b8HnsXE7eA28W1PoO0z2jncFlxEa7Oyq04Uh4hEaBcOBEgS7rwem454uMrYJIxjBlHV.vcfSQ0hDwX4IIUV4Dcug X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 Message-ID: From: "Paddy Apling" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" References: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 10:27:37 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6001.18000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18000 Subject: Re: [Marxism] The European Right's Powerful Push X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 09:25:29 -0000 Le Figaro has the situation fairly well summed up in a superficial way. Across Europe the so-called social-democrats, NewLabour or what you will. have for the past decade turned themselves into neo-cons - and the right have taken the opportunity to pretend themselves as the "true supporters" of the welfare state installed by the post-war consensus - and, since the attack on pension rights and living standards is orchestrated by the "social-democrats", their appeal to the politically-naive is palpable. At the same time, however, there are hopeful signs of apparently "non-political" fights against the neo-con policies - meaning that all the major political parties are really tarred with the same brush and are just "ins" and "outs" as has for so long been the case in the USA. The latest development in Britain is a myriad of local campaigns, involving hundreds of people across the political spectrum fighting against the widespread closure of post offices - just one of many campaigns which show people in movement against neo-con policies, and unconnected to the major political parties. Paddy http://apling.freeservers.com ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 3:48 AM Subject: [Marxism] The European Right's Powerful Push From sukant.chandan@gmail.com Thu May 08 03:50:36 2008 Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com ([66.249.82.234]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Ju2ln-0005dj-TX for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Thu, 08 May 2008 03:50:35 -0600 Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id h27so584609wxd.17 for ; Thu, 08 May 2008 02:52:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.104.8 with SMTP id b8mr4509833agc.34.1210240369567; Thu, 08 May 2008 02:52:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.88.20 with HTTP; Thu, 8 May 2008 02:52:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 10:52:49 +0100 From: "Sukant Chandan" To: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Subject: Re: [Marxism] Adding insult to injury: Bush says starving India eats too much | Links X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 09:50:36 -0000 This is nothing new. The western media is full of hypocritical stories of how Chinese and Indian peoples food consumption (due to some of their populations raised living standards) is causing economic and environmental catastrophe to the world. But then again, when the third world/periphery/countries of the south rise up, this directly impacts on western standards of living and creates deeper and further crises there, impoverishing the standard of living of people in the west. I have thought recently how silly left-wing people in the west sound when they say that it is in the interests of the western working class to support the struggles of the oppressed peoples. This maybe true on a moral-political level, but it is not true at all on a social level, unless we are thinking in context of inter-generational timescales when perhaps there will be no neo-colonialism and a more equitable world order. But while the western left churn out this line, people in the west know very well that it is not true. I am merely bringing up a aspect of western leftism which is profoundly problematic, and is never really addressed by the western left in an honest manner. Sukant From david@miradoiro.com Thu May 08 04:46:49 2008 Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.189]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Ju3eD-0005i2-IR for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Thu, 08 May 2008 04:46:49 -0600 Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id e27so473585nfd.9 for ; Thu, 08 May 2008 03:49:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.210.62.12 with SMTP id k12mr2917638eba.166.1210243742432; Thu, 08 May 2008 03:49:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Nautilus ( [83.165.100.242]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 1sm4194438nfv.18.2008.05.08.03.49.00 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 08 May 2008 03:49:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002101c8b0f9$1d1af3b0$0302a8c0@Nautilus> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?David_Pic=F3n_=C1lvarez?= To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" References: Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 12:48:48 +0200 Organization: Miradoiro MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Subject: Re: [Marxism] The European Right's Powerful Push X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 10:46:50 -0000 While not having many illusions in the Spanish social democrats, I think calling them neocons is going too far. I can't make much of a judgement about SDs elsewhere in EU. --David. From lueko.willms@t-online.de Thu May 08 05:16:07 2008 Received: from mailout10.t-online.de ([194.25.134.21]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Ju46Y-0005jE-UL for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Thu, 08 May 2008 05:16:07 -0600 Received: from fwd26.aul.t-online.de by mailout10.sul.t-online.de with smtp id 1Ju48h-00018Z-00; Thu, 08 May 2008 13:18:19 +0200 Received: from tsat510 (rfPp7QZOQh0sNZ0t5+5ZaEoQiSRcse0w9is+JG7Qne3+XwewL-d+1Zp6o-dzFetw05@[217.232.210.138]) by fwd26.t-online.de with esmtp id 1Ju48Z-1FK2eQ0; Thu, 8 May 2008 13:18:11 +0200 From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?L=FCko_Willms?=" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 08:35:15 +0200 (MES) Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 2.20.2382 for OS/2 Warp 4.5 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <1Ju48Z-1FK2eQ0@fwd26.t-online.de> X-ID: rfPp7QZOQh0sNZ0t5+5ZaEoQiSRcse0w9is+JG7Qne3+XwewL-d+1Zp6o-dzFetw05 X-TOI-MSGID: 8f010117-b257-4f7f-873a-d8f99f070c19 Subject: Re: [Marxism] More on Rolf Martens X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 11:16:07 -0000 On Wed, 07 May 2008 06:47:26 -0400, Haines Brown wrote: > If we attach the name "Maoism" to individuals and movements, > presumably that implies a small number of cogent descriptions of > certain ideas or policies that distinguish Mao. So what are they? > Is there any consensus as to what they are? The idea that Mao was a great revolutionary leader and his words are gospel to be followed. But as in every church, there are quabbles between the various priests on how to apply the gospel to concrete sitations. Yours, Lüko Willms Frankfurt, Germany -------------------------------- visit http://www.mlwerke.de Marx, Engels, Luxemburg, Lenin, Trotzki in German From lueko.willms@t-online.de Thu May 08 05:16:07 2008 Received: from mailout07.t-online.de ([194.25.134.83]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Ju46Y-0005jD-Th for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Thu, 08 May 2008 05:16:07 -0600 Received: from fwd26.aul.t-online.de by mailout07.sul.t-online.de with smtp id 1Ju48h-0000BG-01; Thu, 08 May 2008 13:18:19 +0200 Received: from tsat510 (VmztWGZBghMfsAoB5rm1BFY-rJNu84PDjCowv7Q-asHAAqN4gB-ELpWrD5hXPGmgFA@[217.232.210.138]) by fwd26.t-online.de with esmtp id 1Ju48Y-1FK2eO0; Thu, 8 May 2008 13:18:10 +0200 From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?L=FCko_Willms?=" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 07:25:23 +0200 (MES) Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 2.20.2382 for OS/2 Warp 4.5 In-Reply-To: <2fa158550805061916k5c14bf92o68f8bcd083a50e29@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <1Ju48Y-1FK2eO0@fwd26.t-online.de> X-ID: VmztWGZBghMfsAoB5rm1BFY-rJNu84PDjCowv7Q-asHAAqN4gB-ELpWrD5hXPGmgFA X-TOI-MSGID: 9902b330-111d-4c57-8cca-f7839b799382 Subject: Re: [Marxism] Nigeria (or Tibet). X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 11:16:07 -0000 On Tue, 6 May 2008 23:16:12 -0300, NĂ©stor Gorojovsky wrote: > What I am talking is about things I DO know about: national > revolutions and the differences between "nations" and "nationalities". > > And imperialist usage of nationalities against national movements, > which by definition tend to weld together, nay, dialectically fuse > into a new unity, multiple nationalities into nations. This concern about "nationalities" goes back to Napoleon III, who ruled France between the failed revolution of 1848/49 till the Germano-Prussina war against France of 1870, and the Paris Commune. One can find in Marx' and Engels' writings quite some references and discussions about this "nationalities" question pushed by Boustrapa or "the nephew of his uncle without being the son of his father", as our two friends called that person quite often. Cheers, L.W. Lüko Willms Frankfurt, Germany -------------------------------- visit http://www.mlwerke.de Marx, Engels, Luxemburg, Lenin, Trotzki in German From nmgoro@gmail.com Thu May 08 06:50:19 2008 Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com ([209.85.198.231]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Ju5Zi-000677-Sl for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Thu, 08 May 2008 06:50:19 -0600 Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id f6so1175855rvb.59 for ; Thu, 08 May 2008 05:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.171.6 with SMTP id y6mr1505462rvo.174.1210251153059; Thu, 08 May 2008 05:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.28.17 with HTTP; Thu, 8 May 2008 05:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2fa158550805080552l2bc2ad48vdcf2cc0627b52e51@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 09:52:33 -0300 From: "=?UTF-8?Q?N=C3=A9stor_Gorojovsky?=" To: "Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition" In-Reply-To: <1Ju48Y-1FK2eO0@fwd26.t-online.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline References: <2fa158550805061916k5c14bf92o68f8bcd083a50e29@mail.gmail.com> <1Ju48Y-1FK2eO0@fwd26.t-online.de> Subject: Re: [Marxism] Nigeria (or Tibet). X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 12:50:19 -0000 MjAwOC81LzgsIEzDvGtvIFdpbGxtcyA8bHVla28ud2lsbG1zQHQtb25saW5lLmRlPjoKPiBPbiBU dWUsIDYgTWF5IDIwMDggMjM6MTY6MTIgLTAzMDAsIE7DgyhjKXN0b3IgR29yb2pvdnNreSB3cm90 ZToKPgo+ICAgVGhpcyBjb25jZXJuIGFib3V0ICJuYXRpb25hbGl0aWVzIiBnb2VzIGJhY2sgdG8g TmFwb2xlb24gSUlJLCB3aG8KPiAgcnVsZWQgRnJhbmNlIGJldHdlZW4gdGhlIGZhaWxlZCByZXZv bHV0aW9uIG9mIDE4NDgvNDkgdGlsbCB0aGUKPiAgR2VybWFuby1QcnVzc2luYSB3YXIgYWdhaW5z dCBGcmFuY2Ugb2YgMTg3MCwgYW5kIHRoZSBQYXJpcyBDb21tdW5lLgo+Cj4gICBPbmUgY2FuIGZp bmQgaW4gTWFyeCcgYW5kIEVuZ2Vscycgd3JpdGluZ3MgcXVpdGUgc29tZSByZWZlcmVuY2VzIGFu ZAo+ICBkaXNjdXNzaW9ucyBhYm91dCB0aGlzICJuYXRpb25hbGl0aWVzIiBxdWVzdGlvbiBwdXNo ZWQgYnkgQm91c3RyYXBhIG9yCj4gICJ0aGUgbmVwaGV3IG9mIGhpcyB1bmNsZSB3aXRob3V0IGJl aW5nIHRoZSBzb24gb2YgaGlzIGZhdGhlciIsIGFzIG91cgo+ICB0d28gZnJpZW5kcyBjYWxsZWQg dGhhdCBwZXJzb24gcXVpdGUgb2Z0ZW4uCj4KCk9mLCBjb3Vyc2UsIGl0IGhhZCB0byBiZSBhIGhp c3RvcmljYWxseSBjb25zY2lvdXMgR2VybWFuIE1hcnhpc3Qgd2hvCmJyb3VnaHQgdGhpcyB0byB0 aGUgZm9yZSEKCk9uZSBjYW4gcmVjb2duaXplIHRoZSBncmVhdG5lc3Mgb2YgYm90aCBNJkUgd2hl biB0aGV5IGFjY2VwdGVkIGFuZApzdXBwb3J0ZWQgdGhhdCBwYXJ0aWN1bGFybHkgc3RyYW5nZSBr aW5kIG9mICJuYXRpb25hbCByZXZvbHV0aW9uIiB0aGF0CkJpc21hcmssIG9mIGFsbCBwZW9wbGUs IGxlZCBpbiBHZXJtYW55IGluIDE4NzAuIFRoZSBpc3N1ZSB3YXMgb2J2aW91cwpmb3IgdGhlbSwg YW5kIHRoZXkgd2VyZSBhZGFtYW50IGluIHRoZWlyIHJlamVjdGlvbiBvZiB0aGUgc292ZXJlaWdu aXR5CnJpZ2h0cyBvZiB0aGUgbWlkZ2V0IHVuaXRzIGluIHdoaWNoIEdlcm1hbnkgaGFkIGJlZW4g aGVsZCBmb3IgbG9uZwpjZW50dXJpZXMuCgpUaG9zZSB1bml0cyB3ZXJlIG5vdCB0aGUgZXhwcmVz c2lvbiBvZiBhbnkgbmF0aW9uYWwgbW92ZW1lbnQuIFRoZXkKd2VyZSBzdHJpY3RseSBoZW1tZWQg aW50byAiaW5kZXBlbmRlbmNlIiAoYW5kIHJpZGljdWxvdXNseSBkZWZlbmRlZCBpdAphZ2FpbnN0 IG90aGVyIGltcG90ZW50IG1pZGdldHMgYWNyb3NzIHRoZSBib3JkZXIpIGJ5IGZvcmVpZ24gcG9s aWNpZXMuClRoZXNlIGhhZCBiZWVuIG1pbnRlZCBpbiBCcml0YWluLCBidXQgb24gdGhlIENlbnRy YWwgRXVyb3BlYW4gaXNzdWUsCkZyZW5jaCBhbmQgQnJpdGlzaCwgc28gZWFnZXIgdG8gY3V0IGVh Y2ggb3RoZXIncyB0aHJvYXQgb24gZXZlcnkgb3RoZXIKYXNwZWN0LCB3ZXJlIGluIGZ1bGwgYWdy ZWVtZW50LgoKQnkgbWVyaXQgb2YgdGhlaXIgaGlzdG9yaWNhbCBpbXBvc3NpYmlsaXR5LCBldmVy eSBhbmQgZWFjaCBzbWFsbAoiR2VybWFuIiBzdGF0ZSB0ZW5kZWQgdG8gZnVsZmlsbCBhIHJlYWN0 aW9uYXJ5IHJvbGUsIGFuZCB0aGlzIF9kZXNwaXRlCnRoZSBraW5kIG9mIHJlZ2ltZSBlYWNoIGNv dWxkIGhhdmUgb3IgcG9saXRpY2FsIGxlYW5pbmdzIG9mIHRoZSBydWxpbmcKY2xhc3NlcyBvciBp bmRpdmlkdWFsIHJ1bGVycyBpbiBlYWNoXy4KCkluIHRoZSBlbmQsIGFuZCB0aGlzIGlzIHdoYXQg b25lIG11c3QgYWRtaXJlIGluIE0mRSwgd2hhdCBiZWNhbWUgY2xlYXIKd2FzIHRoYXQgdGhlIHVu aXR5LXNlZWtpbmcsIGhhbGYtZmV1ZGFsIGFuZCAic2VtaWJhcmJhcmljIgpyZWFjdGlvbmFyaWVz IGluIFBydXNzaWEgZGVtb25zdHJhdGVkIHRoZW1zZWx2ZXMgbW9yZSByZXZvbHV0aW9uYXJ5CnRo YW4gdGhlIFJvbWFudGljIGJvdXJnZW9pcyBvciBwZXR0eSBib3VnZW9pcyByZXZvbHV0aW9uYXJp ZXMsIGZ1bGwgb2YKc21hbGwgdW5pdCBwYXRyaW90aXNtLCBpbiB0aGUgImNpdmlsaXplZCIgYXJl YXMgb2YgV2VzdGVybiAiR2VybWFueSIuCgpUaGUgbWFpbiBpc3N1ZSB3YXMgdG8gY2xlYXIgYXdh eSB0aGUgaW52ZXJ0ZWQgY29tbWFzIGFyb3VuZCAiR2VybWFueSIKCkJvdXN0cmFwYSBhbmQgc2lt aWxhcnMgKHBhcnRpY3VsYXJseSB0aGUgQ2hhbm5lbCBvdmVyKSBtdXN0IGhhdmUgd2VwdApiaXR0 ZXIgdGVhcnMgZm9yIHRoZSBpbmRlcGVuZGVuY2Ugb2YgdGhvc2UgYmVhdXRpZnVsIGFuZApvaC1z by1yb21hbnRpY2FsbGx5LWZ1bGwtb2YtbXVzaWNpYW5zICh0aGF0IHBsYXkgb24gaW5zdHJ1bWVu dHMgV0UKYnVpbGQsIHRoaXMgaXMgdGhlIHNlY3JldCBuYXN0eSBwYXJ0IG9mIHRoZSBzdG9yeSkg cHJpbmNpcGFsdGllcyBhbmQKbWlkZ2V0IHN0YXRlcyBpbiBDZW50cmFsIEV1cm9wZS4gSXQgd291 bGQgYmUgbW9zdCBpbnN0cnVjdGl2ZSB0byBkbwpzdWNoIGEgcmVzZWFyY2guIE1vc3QgcHJvYmFi bHksIG9uZSB3b3VsZCBmaW5kIG91dCB0aGF0IHRoZSBzYW1lCnBlb3BsZSBoYWQgYmVlbiBmb3Ig dGhlIFNvdXRoZXJuIG9saWdhcmNoaWVzIGR1cmluZyB0aGUgQW1lcmljYW4gQ2l2aWwKV2FyLgoK QW5kIGlmIHRoZXkgd2VyZSBhbGl2ZSBhbW9uZyB1cyB0b2RheSwgdGhleSB3b3VsZCBiZSB3ZWVw aW5nIHRoZWlyCmJpdHRlciB0ZWFycyBmb3IgbW9zdCAibmF0aW9uYWwiLCBkaXZpc2lvbmlzdCwg c3RydWdnbGVzIHRoYXQgaGF2ZQphcmlzZW4gdGhlIGdsb2JlIG92ZXIgYWZ0ZXIgdGhlIGRpc2Fz dGVyIG9mIDE5ODkuCgotLSAKCk7DqXN0b3IgR29yb2pvdnNreQpFbCB0ZXh0byBwcmluY2lwYWwg ZGUgZXN0ZSBjb3JyZW8gcHVlZGUgbm8gc2VyIGRlIG1pIGF1dG9yw61hCg== From brownh@hartford-hwp.com Thu May 08 07:14:04 2008 Received: from mail8.atl.registeredsite.com ([64.224.219.82] ident=[U2FsdGVkX19kefN+ttNvM2KPCtBHC0jUCD2R++pKY9I=]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Ju5wi-0006AB-0z for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Thu, 08 May 2008 07:14:04 -0600 Received: from mymail.myregisteredsite.com (wmailnode1g.webmail.web.com [209.237.134.185]) by mail8.atl.registeredsite.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with SMTP id m48DGHDb032512 for ; Thu, 8 May 2008 09:16:17 -0400 Received: (qmail 11475 invoked by uid 80); 8 May 2008 13:16:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO teufel.hartford-hwp.com) (brownh@hartford-hwp.com@64.252.172.41) by 209.237.134.181 with ESMTPA; 8 May 2008 13:16:16 -0000 Received: from brownh by teufel.hartford-hwp.com with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Ju5yq-000270-9J; Thu, 08 May 2008 09:16:16 -0400 From: Haines Brown To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition In-reply-to: <908b689f0805071642s1658505ema7866434f13c7cb0@mail.gmail.com> (ok.president+marxml@gmail.com) References: <15161189.569911210141031033.JavaMail.jjonas@nic.fi> <908b689f0805071522u19bcdb60y5bfb6b3fb81ba320@mail.gmail.com> <908b689f0805071642s1658505ema7866434f13c7cb0@mail.gmail.com> Message-Id: Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 09:16:16 -0400 Subject: Re: [Marxism] More on Rolf Martens X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 13:14:04 -0000 > On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 7:16 PM, Haines Brown > wrote: > > > I'm assuming here that "peasant" means a petty private > > agricultural producer rather than an agricultural wage earner. If > > this assumption is incorrect, then that would change my assessment > > of the matter. > > In India at least, there is little class difference between a > perennially landless agricultural laborer and a "small farmer" > holding a tiny plot of land. Both are usually marginalized, and in > fact, the tiny-plot-owning farmer may, in addition to cultivating > his tiny plot, also sell his labor as agricultural wage-labor to > supplement the insufficient income from his tiny plot. Understood, and this dividing line between agricultural wage earning and small plot holder is grey in many other places as well. However, for better or worse, "classical" Marxism made a big distinction in principle. To put it in my own terms, the development of the peasant (in the feudal or narrow sense) depended on his possession of a means of production; the development of the industrial worker depends on class solidarity. Whether these "peasants" (in the newer and looser sense as employed in South Asia) make natural class allies of the industrial proletariat today is another question. How would one go about deciding (disregarding the issue of practicality)? The feudal peasantry in Medieval Europe could certainly band together and become a powerful political force. But such movements tended to splinter and collapse as soon as they had some success. That is, their action was reactive. They sought and sometimes won greater justice within the feudal system, but they offered no practical alternative to it. The reason was simple enough, for their ability to survive and solve their problems depended on their controlling enough decent land to support their family needs, but since petty property was the basis of the feudal economy, they had no alternative to it toward which to strive. How about the peasants/agricultural wage earners of today? Clearly, petty private land holdings cannot represent the economic future, in which means of production are probably going to have to be more concentrated and developed than they are today. In any case, I doubt it would be economically feasible to reduce the concentration of means of production to correspond with the family unit. So the question is, do these peasants/agricultural wage earners seek a collectivization of property and their labor or do they seek to get their hands on enough land so that they might escape the wage system and survive on their own? Your answer to this question would for me be a big hint about whether or not the peasantry in the broader sense are a progressive force. Of course I've put aside a range of practical considerations, such as the size and development of a local industrial work force, which affects its revolutionary potential. Capitalist contradictions certainly result in various crises felt by people the world over, but the revolutionary potentials that also arise from capitalist development may not be located in the same place or affect the same people as its negative impact. The need for radical change and the potential to produce it must be socially connected. So it seems the only way to address this is through international solidarity. If so, I'd be inclined to add to the litmus test of whether a social grouping is potentially progressive an estimate of the extent to which it feels an international solidarity is necessary. In developed economies, such as I experience here in the US, there are comparably difficult questions. When the term "middle class" is used here it refers for the most part to a sector of the working class that has a better income, enjoys a suburban life-style, etc. If we disregard small business folk, etc., in this "middle class", the better off wage-earning US middle class seems to approximate the feudal peasantry in the sense that their ability to cope or advance themselves is often viewed as a private struggle, such as to get an education and the techniques to advance oneself in a career. This is the same as the feudal peasantry. In fact, the suburban middle class resembles a feudal peasantry in a number of other ways as well; even their prosperity relative to the rest of the working class does not differentiate them from a feudal peasantry which could also be relatively prosperous at times (and in the 10th century were even better off than the aristocracy). The "classical" position regarding the petit bourgeoisie is that its class position is ambivalent; individuals can decide to side with the capitalist if it means access to crumbs dropping from the master's table or it reinforces their sense of social status; they can decide to side with the wage-earning working class if they sense that solidarity is to their interest and they see little hope that capitalism will meet their private needs. I suspect that this assessment applies to our "middle class" as well. I get the feeling from your characterization that "Maoists" today don't take such a wait-and-see or ad hoc attitude for the peasantry/agricultural wage earners, but feel that their natural or instinctive ambition is not to acquire or maintain petty property, but they see joining industrial workers being to their advantage. Is this estimate of the situation there correct in your view? The issue of classes today I'd be the first to admit is not easily resolved in terms of "classical" Marxism. For Europe's feudal peasantry, the political reaction to the feudal aristocracy was limited to the political level and generally did not involve the "point of production" in the fields. It was therefore not a revolutionary class despite all their rebellions (although see Engels on the German peasantry in the 16th century). So my question is, to what extent and in what way are the Maoists in South Asia struggling for economic change in a direction that contradicts the capitalist system? Also, would any lurkers like to suggest a different definition of "Maoism" than my correspondent? Haines Brown From sukant.chandan@gmail.com Thu May 08 09:14:56 2008 Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com ([66.249.82.238]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Ju7pf-0006S3-ST for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Thu, 08 May 2008 09:14:56 -0600 Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id h27so682771wxd.17 for ; Thu, 08 May 2008 08:17:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.105.6 with SMTP id d6mr4930923agc.13.1210259829570; Thu, 08 May 2008 08:17:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.88.20 with HTTP; Thu, 8 May 2008 08:17:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 16:17:09 +0100 From: "Sukant Chandan" To: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Subject: [Marxism] [for facebook users] New pro-PRC group X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 15:14:56 -0000 please join in: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=3D13348442706 INTERNATIONAL FRIENDS OF CHINA =09 To defend the sovereignty of the Peoples Republic of China (PRC) To support the PRC as a country with a rich patriotic and revolutionary tradition and identity To celebrate the PRC as a multi-ethnic and multi-religious country To celebrate Chinese film, music, food and general progressive Chinese cult= ure To encourage learning about the world historic achievements of poverty alleviation in China and general societal development of a former-colony and feudal country To support the PRC's work towards a peaceful and stable world and the PRC's record in working towards a multi-polar world To disseminate the PRC's role in encouraging the development of the developing countries in Latin America, the Middle East, Asia and especially Africa's rejuvenation To develop friendship and understanding with the peoples and government of the PRC To support the PRC's hosting of the Beijing 2008 Olympics, an event which is raising the PRC's prestige and stature in the world =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D RULES & ETIQUETTE: Please conduct yourself in a respect manner to yourself and others China-bashing will not be tolerated We welcome critical discussions and understand they can get heated at times, but rude and arrogant attacks on leaders of the PRC and CPC will be kept on a tight leash Racism, sexism, homophobia or any other kind of reactionary prejudices will not be tolerated Eurocentrism /Western-centrism and neo-colonial arrogance from whatever place in the political spectrum will be kept on a tight leash ;-) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D REQUESTS: PLEASE contribute videos, posted items, articles, topics for discussion Please ask your friends to join, everyone is welcome, but special focus is intended for the non-Chinese people to engage in an educational dialogue with the nature, challenges, limitations and successes of the PRC and CPC. However, please do not interpret this in anyway as to discouraging Chinese people in joining =96 you are more than welcome! To our Chinese and Chinese-speaking friends, due to the advantage of language, you have a special insight into the PRC, so please help us non-Chinese and non-Chinese speaking people to understand the PRC and CPC, help translate things into English from articles, youtube videos etc, that you think maybe of interest. This could be music, food, politics, comedy, anything! From ffeldman@bellatlantic.net Thu May 08 09:15:59 2008 Received: from vms173005pub.verizon.net ([206.46.173.5]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Ju7qg-0006SK-Vf for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Thu, 08 May 2008 09:15:59 -0600 Received: from office1pc ([151.198.122.16]) by vms173005.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0K0K00B6A283CQ76@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Thu, 08 May 2008 10:12:04 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 11:18:13 -0400 From: "Fred Feldman" To: Message-id: <000001c8b11e$bc702320$6401a8c0@office1pc> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thread-index: AcixHrt9yFPWyiwuQWKVvhktAW/I4g== Subject: [Marxism] Hilary Clinton: Say it loud, we're white and we're proud! X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 15:15:59 -0000 Notice how much more "working, hard working" the decent white Americans who can't stomach Obama are than everybody else -- including (it really goes without saying) Black workers and white workers who are attracted to Obama as an advocate and symbol of "change." Fred >From The New Republic's The Plank blog: http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_plank/archive/2008/05/07/race-again.aspx Race, Again We'll see what happens tomorrow, but this may indeed become a big story (from a USA Today interview): Hillary Rodham Clinton vowed Wednesday to continue her quest for the Democratic nomination, arguing she would be the stronger nominee because she appeals to a wider coalition of voters - including whites who have not supported Barack Obama in recent contests. "I have a much broader base to build a winning coalition on," she said in an interview with USA TODAY. As evidence, Clinton cited an Associated Press article "that found how Sen. Obama's support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again, and how whites in both states who had not completed college were supporting me." "There's a pattern emerging here," she said. [Italics Mine] The article describes the "remarks about race" as "blunt." Regardless, this does not seem to be a "unifying" statement. --Isaac Chotiner Posted: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 10:39 PM with 34 comment(s) From walterlx@earthlink.net Thu May 08 09:33:48 2008 Received: from elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.66]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Ju87w-0006UA-PE for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Thu, 08 May 2008 09:33:48 -0600 Received: from [216.175.75.157] (helo=new1501) by elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Ju8A1-0007CG-TE; Thu, 08 May 2008 11:35:58 -0400 From: "Walter Lippmann" To: "'Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition'" Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 08:35:44 -0700 Message-ID: <001d01c8b121$2f3b9450$6401a8c0@new1501> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AciwRaXplB8eqSDCRD+pF4soW7oBEA== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-ELNK-Trace: 584b452a2df9bf4e1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79107649550589a0d4b737309cb6768d25350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 216.175.75.157 Subject: [Marxism] Joseph Needham put Chinese science on the world map. X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 15:33:49 -0000 (There's a much longer sound interview you can access, too.) ============================================================== China's eccentric champion Joseph Needham put Chinese science on the world map. By Marjorie Kehe from the May 6, 2008 edition http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0506/p15s03-bogn.htm Book editor Marjorie Kehe talks with author Simon Winchester. "Four thousand years ago, when we couldn't even read, the Chinese knew all the absolutely useful things we boast about today," wrote French philosophe Voltaire in 1764. But if today in the West we widely acknowledge those words to be true, that's largely due to an Englishman. Joseph Needham, a brilliant Cambridge don, was a "bespectacled, owlish, fearless adventurer ... a nudist, a wild dancer, an accordian player, and a chain-smoking churchgoer." He was also the man who dragged China's reputation in the West from the dustbin ("this booby nation," as Ralph Waldo Emerson called it in 1824) to its rightful place as a principal forger of human civilization. Needham is the subject of The Man Who Loved China by Simon Winchester, former journalist and bestselling nonfiction author ("The Professor and the Madman," "Krakatoa," and "The Map That Changed the World.") Winchester stumbled on Needham's name while researching another project and was surprised to realize that he knew nothing about the eccentric professor who had authored a massive, multivolume encyclopedia called "Science and Civilisation in China." Readers might be forgiven for imagining that the life of an encyclopedist of scientific history would have all the zip of a tax seminar. But not in the case of Needham. He was trained as a biochemist - and a brilliant one at that. But Needham was also a being stuffed to the brim with energy and passion. His enthusiasms spilled over into many areas - leftist politics, railways, morris dancing - and beautiful women. His marriage to another brainy young biochemist (both with bright futures at Cambridge University) did not prevent him from falling headlong for a Chinese scientist named Lu Gwei-djen. Needham's passion for Gwei-djen led him to learn her language, a study that he found to be "a liberation, like going for a swim on a hot day ... into the glittering crystalline world of ideological characters." Once fluent in Chinese, Needham was invited by the British government in 1943 to make a diplomatic mission to China while it was under siege by the Japanese. Needham accepted with alacrity and spent the next few years traveling the country. Winchester draws heavily on Needham's own writing and does a lively job of helping readers to see the China that so entranced him - a land of "narrow streets ... fizzing with lanterns, jammed with stalls, and crowded with tides of humanity" and "great mountain passes, overwhelming scenery, unpredictable roads, bridges broken down." He also re-creates the fury with which the ever-curious Needham tore through the Chinese countryside, exploring the Chinese origin of everything from the orange to the magnetic compass. The more he learned, the more awed Needham was by the depth and breadth of early Chinese ingenuity. Needham would never return to the study of biochemistry. Instead, he would spend the rest of his life puzzling over a question he first scribbled on the back of a letter while voyaging: "Sci. in general in China - why not develop?" In other words, why had China failed to capitalize on its early, historical promise? It was a question he would never fully answer. Needham lived to be 94, a life filled with multiple journeys to China and a privileged position at Cambridge. Needham's career, however, was not without controversy. In the 1950s he headed a commission that charged that the US had used biological weapons against North Korea (a charge now largely presumed to be false). He also turned a blind eye to what many Westerners saw as the abuses of Mao's government. ("The first freedom is to eat - and now the Chinese people are being fed," he insisted in defense of his friends in the country's Commmunist government.) "The Man Who Loved China" has a breathless quality. The land that Needham loved is vast - as are his own accomplishments. Readers travel at warp speed to reach the end of such a career in less than 300 pages of text. Perhaps as a result, we see Needham in action - constantly - but we learn surprisingly little of his interior. However, with all eyes turned to China this summer, those interested in the achievements of the Olympics' behemoth host will do well to take a tour with this remarkable guide. . Marjorie Kehe is the Monitor's book editor. Send comments to kehem@csps.com. ======================================== WALTER LIPPMANN, CubaNews Los Angeles, California http://www.walterlippmann.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaNews/ "Cuba - Un Paraiso bajo el bloqueo" ======================================== From lnp3@panix.com Thu May 08 09:42:43 2008 Received: from brinza.cc.columbia.edu ([128.59.29.8]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Ju8GY-0006W2-UJ for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Thu, 08 May 2008 09:42:43 -0600 Received: from [128.59.52.253] (dyn-128-59-52-253.dyn.columbia.edu [128.59.52.253]) (user=lnp3 mech=PLAIN bits=0) by brinza.cc.columbia.edu (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m48FirqJ003720 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 8 May 2008 11:44:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <48231FF8.6090104@panix.com> Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 11:44:56 -0400 From: Louis Proyect User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed X-No-Spam-Score: Local X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.63 on 128.59.29.8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by brinza.cc.columbia.edu id m48FirqJ003720 Cc: paul Buhle Subject: [Marxism] Trumbo X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 15:42:43 -0000 Scheduled for theatrical release in NYC and LA on June 27th, Peter=20 Askin=92s =93Trumbo=94 is based on the stage play by the famous blacklist= ee=92s=20 son Christopher Trumbo. Dalton Trumbo=92s struggle against the witch hunt= =20 would be compelling enough in itself, but the film has a more general=20 appeal as a study of one of the most complex and interesting=20 personalities to have ever worked in Hollywood. As a long time critic of the generally crappy state of Hollywood movies=20 today, I have pinned the blame on a general decline in screenwriting,=20 which I blame on the dumbing down effect of television on our culture.=20 As movies become more and more like television shows, the race to the=20 bottom accelerates. After I=92ve seen a Judd Apatow film, I get the=20 distinct impression that he never read a book after graduating college. By contrast, Dalton Trumbo was a man of letters and in a distinctly old=20 fashion way, a letter writer. Like the 19th century novelists whose=20 letters matched their public work in intelligence and creativity, Trumbo=20 was one our great letter writers. =93Trumbo=94 is structured around a ser= ies=20 of dramatic readings of Trumbo=92s letters, with a number of more=20 enlightened actors taking turns, from Michael Douglas to David=20 Strathairn. Both of these actors are in their element. Douglas is a=20 long-time partisan of left-liberal causes, while Strathairn obviously=20 became familiar with the witch-hunt during the filming of =93Goodbye and=20 Good Luck=94. Playing Edward R. Murrow, assumed the role of one of the fe= w=20 powerful figures in media who was willing to stand up to McCarthy. full: http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2008/05/08/trumbo/ From Dbachmozart@aol.com Thu May 08 10:35:32 2008 Received: from imo-m24.mx.aol.com ([64.12.137.5]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Ju95f-0006at-W0 for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Thu, 08 May 2008 10:35:32 -0600 Received: from Dbachmozart@aol.com by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r9.4.) id w.bb9.23ce0004 (30737) for ; Thu, 8 May 2008 12:37:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Dbachmozart@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 12:37:33 EDT To: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 9.0 VR sub 5006 X-Spam-Flag: NO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Subject: [Marxism] Hillary's pandering to white racism X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 16:35:32 -0000 Interesting and well- thought out argument for supporting Obama's bid for the nomination while maintaining that also supporting McKinney is not a contradiction. <_http://www.blackcommentator.com/276/276_white_bloc_must_be_stopped_mann_gues t.html_ (http://www.blackcommentator.com/276/276_white_bloc_must_be_stopped_mann_guest.html) > All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860) **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) From walterlx@earthlink.net Thu May 08 10:42:53 2008 Received: from elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.66]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Ju9Cn-0006bb-DD for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Thu, 08 May 2008 10:42:53 -0600 Received: from [209.86.224.32] (helo=elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Ju9Es-0006Yv-Tr for marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu; Thu, 08 May 2008 12:45:02 -0400 Received: from 216.175.75.157 by webmail.pas.earthlink.net with HTTP; Thu, 8 May 2008 12:45:02 -0400 Message-ID: <1242989.1210265102825.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 12:45:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Walter Lippmann To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 584b452a2df9bf4e1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec793d7114cdee07e629ab4f3e1e13a153c6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.32 Subject: Re: [Marxism] Hillary's pandering to white racism X-BeenThere: marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Id: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 16:42:53 -0000 Max J. Castro writing at Progreso Weekly: The Jeremiah Wright =E2=80=9Ccontroversy:=E2=80=9D One more media bubble excerpt: How many times does Obama need to disavow the views of Reverend Wright? The answer is that Obama can never do it enough times or get it right. Obama is black, and he has a progressive political trajectory. That, not Wright, is why many would like to destroy him. ------------------------------------------------------------------- The one silver lining in this shameful picture is that the public does not seem to be going along with the implication, implicit in the incessant media attention, that Obama=E2=80=99s association with Jeremiah Wright reflects a lack of judgment or a character flaw on the part of the Illinois senator: A New York Times/CBS News poll released May 5 found that the issue of Wright has not affected most Americans=E2=80=99 vie= ws of Barack Obama. FULL: http://progreso-weekly.com/index.php?option=3Dcom_content&task=3Dview&id=3D= 459&Itemid=3D1 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D WALTER LIPPMANN Los Angeles, California Editor-in-Chief, CubaNews http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaNews/ "Cuba - Un Para=C3=ADso bajo el bloqueo" =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From lnp3@panix.com Thu May 08 10:54:53 2008 Received: from serrano.cc.columbia.edu ([128.59.29.6]) by lists.econ.utah.edu with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from