[Marxism-Thaxis] Relations of Production - Marx settle the question again. .

[Waistline2 at aol.com]

CB: Relations of production or property relations are class relations. The
organization of material productive forces, including the organization of
people "on the shop floor", the technical division of labor, is not class
relations. The capitalist owner is not even there overseeing the shopfloor
anymore. The "owning" is done out in Grosse Pointe and "on" Wall Street.
That's the class relation. There is a separation of the technical overseer
position (part of the division of labor) and the class capitalist ownership
position ( part of the relations of production or what is an expression for
the same thing, the property relations).
 
WL: Interesting proposition. What you end up stating and illustrating is that 
relations of production or property relations are the laws defining property 
and peoples relationship to property in the process of production. You define 
the capitalist as living beings in the process of production as "technical 
overseer" and "ownership position" and then basically state the  "technical 
overseer" aspect is part of the division of labor and the ownership position is the 
relations of production embodied in the same person. 
 
Then you basically state that owing to the growing division of labor the 
capitalist no longer is technical overseer - is separated from actively engaging 
production, and remains an owner. Now it gets tricky because you have 
previously stated - bascially, that the capitalist does not necessarily owned any 
production facilities, to be regarded as capitalist and I agree with this. 
 
1). My basic position is that how I define relations of production is 
accurate and how you define relations of production is less accurate according to 
Karl Marx writings. 
 
What does Marx state on the matter of relations of production? 
"In the process of production, human beings work not only upon nature, but 
also upon one another. They produce only by working together in a specified 
manner and reciprocally exchanging their activities. In order to produce, they 
enter into definite connections and relations to one another, and only within 
these social connections and relations does their influence upon nature operate — 
i.e., does production take place. 

These social relations between the producers, and the conditions under which 
they exchange their activities and share in the total act of production, will 
naturally vary according to the character of the means of production. With the 
discover of a new instrument of warfare, the firearm, the whole internal 
organization of the army was necessarily altered, the relations within which 
individuals compose an army and can work as an army were transformed, and the 
relation of different armies to another was likewise changed. 

We thus see that the social relations within which individuals produce, the 
social relations of production, are altered, transformed, with the change and 
development of the material means of production, of the forces of production. 
The relations of production in their totality constitute what is called the 
social relations, society, and, moreover, a society at a definite stage of 
historical development, a society with peculiar, distinctive characteristics. 
Ancient society, feudal society, bourgeois (or capitalist) society, are such 
totalities of relations of production, each of which denotes a particular stage of 
development in the history of mankind. " 
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/wage-labour/ch05.htm

All I have done is virtually stated Marx words verbatim: 

"The relations of production in their totality constitute what is called the 
social relations, society, and, moreover, a society at a definite stage of 
historical development, a society with peculiar, distinctive characteristics." 

What are these relations of production in their totality? YOU STATE PROPERTY 
as class. Here is what you repeatedly state: 

CB:  Relations of production or property relations are class relations. The
organization of material productive forces, including the organization of
people "on the shop floor", the technical division of labor, is not class
relations. 

WL: I speak of relations of production in their totality, not simply from the 
standpoint of property but the sum total of what constitutes a mode of 
production. Relations of production are not simply property relations ("Relations of 
production or property relations."). Nor are relations of production simply 
class relations, with class relations being defined as property relations. 

This definition is to narrow and restricted.  Please cite your source in Marx 
where he states "relations of production or property relations are class 
relations" . . . and then turn around and define class relations as simply 
property relations and then restrict relations of production to the form of property 
of a given historical period.  Actually relations of production cannot be 
property relations but only a form of property relations during a given historical 
period, at best. 

Shifting the concept from "property relations" to "forms of property 
relations" automatically implies distinguishing historical period and different modes 
of production. Modes of production are in the last instance distinguished on 
the basis of the development or accumulation of productive forces which is 
unraveled and made understandable by the state of development of the technological 
regime. This is the ABC of Marxism. The Alpha and Omega. 

Class relations are always more than the law defining property and ones 
relationship to property. Class relations are all ways connected to and correspond 
to a given state of development of tools, instruments, machinery and energy 
infrastructure through which people are organized to engage production. It 
simply cannot be otherwise. 

Cite your source. I have shown you mine and now it is your turn to show me 
yours.:-) 

Class relations are material categories of engagement "at a definite stage of 
historical development, a society with peculiar, distinctive characteristics" 
and this most certain includes and mean a measure of the existing 
infrastructure, technological regime, energy infrastructure and how people actually 
deploy the various instruments, tools and machinery and the historically specific 
stage of development of machinery, at their disposal. On this basis everyone 
distinguishes an industrial class from a manufacturing class or a serf from an 
agricultural worker. 

Waistline