From mh at jaspere7.demon.co.uk  Sun Mar  1 02:31:18 2009
From: mh at jaspere7.demon.co.uk (Mervyn Hartwig)
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 09:31:18 -0000
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Fwd: Questions
In-Reply-To: <adf9704b0902281828h60e861f7m8d873fd183e13137@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.394.1235899880.2553.critical-realism@lists.econ.utah.edu>

Here is his broad-brush take on social constructionism in Bhaskar with
Hartwig, The Formation of CR: A Personal Perspective (Routledge, forthcoming
2009 - a book of interviews, still in draft): 

Now with this double (ontological and epistemological) inclusiveness in
mind, we can then look at what alternative or rival philosophies of social
science do, and we will see that normally they fasten onto only one
particular bit of the research process and, in so far as they are doing
ontology, theorise only the sort of thing they are expecting to find at that
particular level. So the Humeans - the empiricists - look for constant
conjunctions. The neo-Kantians are thinking about the importance of
structure in mind and the social community, so they are looking for that.
The hermeneuticists come along and say, well, the nature of social reality
is very different from natural reality and the structures that you
neo-Kantians are thinking about are constituted by language. Their basic
argument is that that is how society is, so you have empiricists and
neo-Kantians focusing on the transitive dimension and the hermeneuticists
focusing on an intransitive dimension of the social as constituted by
linguistic or conceptual matters. Then the social constructionists come
along and couple a neo-Kantian epistemology with a hermeneutic ontology and
you have the doctrine that the only thing that can be known is what we
constitute in our linguistic experience. Then you realise that what all
these different philosophical vantage-points are talking about is correct in
far as it goes, in so far as one focuses on one specific area of
investigation or on one moment of the total enquiry. However, what critical
realism tries to do is give a picture of the whole. This means that critical
realists can embrace the insights of other positions and need not fear
anything from them. Critical realists are welcome to join in, but so too are
social constructionists, empiricists, neo-Kantians and any other variety of
philosopher, social theorist and researcher. This could be called the
critical realist embrace. We do not demolish our opponents at this level, we
embrace them.


-----Original Message-----
From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu
[mailto:critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of shiva
hemmati
Sent: 01 March 2009 02:28
To: critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Fwd: Questions

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: shiva hemmati <shivahemmati at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 01:30:33 -0800
Subject: Questions
To: mailman-owner at lists.econ.utah.edu

Hello
How can I be aware of Bhaskar's viewpoint about Social constructivism?

--
best wishes
Shiva Hemati



-- 
best wishes
Shiva Hemati

_______________________________________________
Critical-Realism mailing list
Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism

__________ NOD32 3896 (20090228) Information __________

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From bradrose1 at comcast.net  Sun Mar  1 05:31:11 2009
From: bradrose1 at comcast.net (Brad Rose)
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 07:31:11 -0500
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Fwd: Questions
In-Reply-To: <6ad241360902281849g1fa89227v3b29957121d508d9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <adf9704b0902250130p13b6c0e1h43973d045335a85@mail.gmail.com><adf9704b0902281828h60e861f7m8d873fd183e13137@mail.gmail.com>
	<6ad241360902281849g1fa89227v3b29957121d508d9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <60146B1664D444D8A167551B1BA674D0@BradRosePC>

Ruth, All

I've been interested in obtaining a copy of Collier's book, but it seems it 
is out of print at Verso, and don't see it available elsewhere?  Does anyone 
have any thoughts about how to get a copy?  Any thoughts about nudging the 
publisher?? Don't know if there is a sufficient demand to motivate a new 
edition??

Thanks,

Brad




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ruth Groff" <rgroff at slu.edu>
To: "Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List" 
<critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Fwd: Questions


> Hi Shiva,
>
> Social constructivism about what?
>
> Also, have you read any Bhaskar yet?
>
> I continue to think that Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN INTRODUCTION TO 
> ROY
> BHASKAR'S PHILOSOPHY is the most accessible introduction.  What to read
> first by Bhaskar really depends on who you ask!  Still, if you say more
> about your interests and intellectual background, people might be able to
> recommend things.
>
> Warmly,
> Ruth
>
> On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 8:28 PM, shiva hemmati 
> <shivahemmati at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: shiva hemmati <shivahemmati at gmail.com>
>> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 01:30:33 -0800
>> Subject: Questions
>> To: mailman-owner at lists.econ.utah.edu
>>
>> Hello
>> How can I be aware of Bhaskar's viewpoint about Social constructivism?
>>
>> --
>> best wishes
>> Shiva Hemati
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> best wishes
>> Shiva Hemati
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Critical-Realism mailing list
>> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism 



From d.simm at lancaster.ac.uk  Sun Mar  1 06:58:01 2009
From: d.simm at lancaster.ac.uk (David Simm)
Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 13:58:01 +0000
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Fwd: Questions
In-Reply-To: <60146B1664D444D8A167551B1BA674D0@BradRosePC>
Message-ID: <C5D044E9.10D94%d.simm@lancaster.ac.uk>

Brad,

Very recently I remember seeing a copy of this on www.bookfinder.com. It was
sold, I think,  via a French bookseller (alapage.com)? Presume they ship
worldwide?

Regards,

David Simm


On 01/03/2009 12:31, "Brad Rose" <bradrose1 at comcast.net> wrote:

> Ruth, All
> 
> I've been interested in obtaining a copy of Collier's book, but it seems it
> is out of print at Verso, and don't see it available elsewhere?  Does anyone
> have any thoughts about how to get a copy?  Any thoughts about nudging the
> publisher?? Don't know if there is a sufficient demand to motivate a new
> edition??
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Brad
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ruth Groff" <rgroff at slu.edu>
> To: "Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List"
> <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Fwd: Questions
> 
> 
>> Hi Shiva,
>> 
>> Social constructivism about what?
>> 
>> Also, have you read any Bhaskar yet?
>> 
>> I continue to think that Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN INTRODUCTION TO
>> ROY
>> BHASKAR'S PHILOSOPHY is the most accessible introduction.  What to read
>> first by Bhaskar really depends on who you ask!  Still, if you say more
>> about your interests and intellectual background, people might be able to
>> recommend things.
>> 
>> Warmly,
>> Ruth
>> 
>> On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 8:28 PM, shiva hemmati
>> <shivahemmati at gmail.com>wrote:
>> 
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: shiva hemmati <shivahemmati at gmail.com>
>>> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 01:30:33 -0800
>>> Subject: Questions
>>> To: mailman-owner at lists.econ.utah.edu
>>> 
>>> Hello
>>> How can I be aware of Bhaskar's viewpoint about Social constructivism?
>>> 
>>> --
>>> best wishes
>>> Shiva Hemati
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> best wishes
>>> Shiva Hemati
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Critical-Realism mailing list
>>> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>>> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Critical-Realism mailing list
>> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism



From rgroff at slu.edu  Sun Mar  1 08:47:37 2009
From: rgroff at slu.edu (Ruth Groff)
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 09:47:37 -0600
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Fwd: Questions
In-Reply-To: <60146B1664D444D8A167551B1BA674D0@BradRosePC>
References: <adf9704b0902250130p13b6c0e1h43973d045335a85@mail.gmail.com>
	<adf9704b0902281828h60e861f7m8d873fd183e13137@mail.gmail.com>
	<6ad241360902281849g1fa89227v3b29957121d508d9@mail.gmail.com>
	<60146B1664D444D8A167551B1BA674D0@BradRosePC>
Message-ID: <6ad241360903010747x3d0dbd29me939a3e1b0515b8e@mail.gmail.com>

Really --- out of print?!  That's terrible!  I mean, really -- it is THE
single, bottom-level accessible introduction.  Mervyn do you think there's
any chance of convincing Routledge to try to get a-hold of it?

r.





On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 6:31 AM, Brad Rose <bradrose1 at comcast.net> wrote:

> Ruth, All
>
> I've been interested in obtaining a copy of Collier's book, but it seems it
> is out of print at Verso, and don't see it available elsewhere?  Does
> anyone
> have any thoughts about how to get a copy?  Any thoughts about nudging the
> publisher?? Don't know if there is a sufficient demand to motivate a new
> edition??
>
> Thanks,
>
> Brad
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ruth Groff" <rgroff at slu.edu>
> To: "Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List"
> <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Fwd: Questions
>
>
> > Hi Shiva,
> >
> > Social constructivism about what?
> >
> > Also, have you read any Bhaskar yet?
> >
> > I continue to think that Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN INTRODUCTION TO
> > ROY
> > BHASKAR'S PHILOSOPHY is the most accessible introduction.  What to read
> > first by Bhaskar really depends on who you ask!  Still, if you say more
> > about your interests and intellectual background, people might be able to
> > recommend things.
> >
> > Warmly,
> > Ruth
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 8:28 PM, shiva hemmati
> > <shivahemmati at gmail.com>wrote:
> >
> >> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >> From: shiva hemmati <shivahemmati at gmail.com>
> >> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 01:30:33 -0800
> >> Subject: Questions
> >> To: mailman-owner at lists.econ.utah.edu
> >>
> >> Hello
> >> How can I be aware of Bhaskar's viewpoint about Social constructivism?
> >>
> >> --
> >> best wishes
> >> Shiva Hemati
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> best wishes
> >> Shiva Hemati
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Critical-Realism mailing list
> >> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> >> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Critical-Realism mailing list
> > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>

From mh at jaspere7.demon.co.uk  Sun Mar  1 09:01:07 2009
From: mh at jaspere7.demon.co.uk (Mervyn Hartwig)
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 16:01:07 -0000
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Fwd: Questions
In-Reply-To: <6ad241360903010747x3d0dbd29me939a3e1b0515b8e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.395.1235923271.2553.critical-realism@lists.econ.utah.edu>

I've already had one go. I'll have another. Mervyn 



-----Original Message-----
From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu
[mailto:critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Ruth
Groff
Sent: 01 March 2009 15:48
To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List
Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Fwd: Questions

Really --- out of print?!  That's terrible!  I mean, really -- it is THE
single, bottom-level accessible introduction.  Mervyn do you think there's
any chance of convincing Routledge to try to get a-hold of it?

r.





On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 6:31 AM, Brad Rose <bradrose1 at comcast.net> wrote:

> Ruth, All
>
> I've been interested in obtaining a copy of Collier's book, but it 
> seems it is out of print at Verso, and don't see it available 
> elsewhere?  Does anyone have any thoughts about how to get a copy?  
> Any thoughts about nudging the publisher?? Don't know if there is a 
> sufficient demand to motivate a new edition??
>
> Thanks,
>
> Brad
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ruth Groff" <rgroff at slu.edu>
> To: "Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List"
> <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Fwd: Questions
>
>
> > Hi Shiva,
> >
> > Social constructivism about what?
> >
> > Also, have you read any Bhaskar yet?
> >
> > I continue to think that Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN INTRODUCTION 
> > TO ROY BHASKAR'S PHILOSOPHY is the most accessible introduction.  
> > What to read first by Bhaskar really depends on who you ask!  Still, 
> > if you say more about your interests and intellectual background, 
> > people might be able to recommend things.
> >
> > Warmly,
> > Ruth
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 8:28 PM, shiva hemmati
> > <shivahemmati at gmail.com>wrote:
> >
> >> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >> From: shiva hemmati <shivahemmati at gmail.com>
> >> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 01:30:33 -0800
> >> Subject: Questions
> >> To: mailman-owner at lists.econ.utah.edu
> >>
> >> Hello
> >> How can I be aware of Bhaskar's viewpoint about Social constructivism?
> >>
> >> --
> >> best wishes
> >> Shiva Hemati
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> best wishes
> >> Shiva Hemati
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Critical-Realism mailing list
> >> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> >> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Critical-Realism mailing list
> > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>
_______________________________________________
Critical-Realism mailing list
Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism

__________ NOD32 3896 (20090228) Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com




From bradrose1 at comcast.net  Sun Mar  1 11:12:24 2009
From: bradrose1 at comcast.net (Brad Rose)
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 13:12:24 -0500
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Fwd: Questions
In-Reply-To: <7alt5i$3lquim@ipo3smtp.cc.utah.edu>
References: <7alt5i$3lquim@ipo3smtp.cc.utah.edu>
Message-ID: <69993211F0804DE59DDD091971F9E8B2@BradRosePC>

Mervyn, All,

I wonder if it would be possible, feasible and/or desirable to contact the 
folks at Verso?  They originally published this and I think some of 
Bhaskar's early work in the 1970s (If I recall correctly).  I don't know if 
approaching the original publisher might have some advantage in terms of 
getting it back into print??

Brad



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mervyn Hartwig" <mh at jaspere7.demon.co.uk>
To: "'Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List'" 
<critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Fwd: Questions


> I've already had one go. I'll have another. Mervyn
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu
> [mailto:critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Ruth
> Groff
> Sent: 01 March 2009 15:48
> To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List
> Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Fwd: Questions
>
> Really --- out of print?!  That's terrible!  I mean, really -- it is THE
> single, bottom-level accessible introduction.  Mervyn do you think there's
> any chance of convincing Routledge to try to get a-hold of it?
>
> r.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 6:31 AM, Brad Rose <bradrose1 at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Ruth, All
>>
>> I've been interested in obtaining a copy of Collier's book, but it
>> seems it is out of print at Verso, and don't see it available
>> elsewhere?  Does anyone have any thoughts about how to get a copy?
>> Any thoughts about nudging the publisher?? Don't know if there is a
>> sufficient demand to motivate a new edition??
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Brad
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ruth Groff" <rgroff at slu.edu>
>> To: "Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List"
>> <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
>> Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Fwd: Questions
>>
>>
>> > Hi Shiva,
>> >
>> > Social constructivism about what?
>> >
>> > Also, have you read any Bhaskar yet?
>> >
>> > I continue to think that Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN INTRODUCTION
>> > TO ROY BHASKAR'S PHILOSOPHY is the most accessible introduction.
>> > What to read first by Bhaskar really depends on who you ask!  Still,
>> > if you say more about your interests and intellectual background,
>> > people might be able to recommend things.
>> >
>> > Warmly,
>> > Ruth
>> >
>> > On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 8:28 PM, shiva hemmati
>> > <shivahemmati at gmail.com>wrote:
>> >
>> >> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> >> From: shiva hemmati <shivahemmati at gmail.com>
>> >> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 01:30:33 -0800
>> >> Subject: Questions
>> >> To: mailman-owner at lists.econ.utah.edu
>> >>
>> >> Hello
>> >> How can I be aware of Bhaskar's viewpoint about Social constructivism?
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> best wishes
>> >> Shiva Hemati
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> best wishes
>> >> Shiva Hemati
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Critical-Realism mailing list
>> >> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>> >> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>> >>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Critical-Realism mailing list
>> > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>> > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Critical-Realism mailing list
>> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>
> __________ NOD32 3896 (20090228) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism 



From lena.gunnarsson at oru.se  Mon Mar  9 10:23:20 2009
From: lena.gunnarsson at oru.se (Lena Gunnarsson)
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 17:23:20 +0100
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms
Message-ID: <49B54278.6080102@oru.se>

Hi everyone,

I have read quite a lot of critical realist texts by now, but still I 
can't really figure out what exactly is the difference between powers, 
tendencies and mechanisms. At any rate, the anaytical distinctions 
between them don't seem perfectly clear-cut. Is this confusion of mine 
just a reflection of the ambiguities within the concepts or do I read 
badly??

Best
Lena


From rgroff at slu.edu  Mon Mar  9 10:29:07 2009
From: rgroff at slu.edu (Ruth Groff)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 11:29:07 -0500
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms
In-Reply-To: <49B54278.6080102@oru.se>
References: <49B54278.6080102@oru.se>
Message-ID: <6ad241360903090929i5bcb22c2ga8ada5585fa973a5@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Lena,

No, you're not the only one.  I am expecting JCR to publish at least one if
not two pieces on this issue in the near future.  Perhaps you should weigh
in to the discussion as well!  What's your area?

Warmly,
Ruth



On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 11:23 AM, Lena Gunnarsson <lena.gunnarsson at oru.se>wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I have read quite a lot of critical realist texts by now, but still I
> can't really figure out what exactly is the difference between powers,
> tendencies and mechanisms. At any rate, the anaytical distinctions
> between them don't seem perfectly clear-cut. Is this confusion of mine
> just a reflection of the ambiguities within the concepts or do I read
> badly??
>
> Best
> Lena
>
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>

From alex.clark at ualberta.ca  Mon Mar  9 10:37:45 2009
From: alex.clark at ualberta.ca (Alex Clark)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 10:37:45 -0600
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms
References: <49B54278.6080102@oru.se>
	<6ad241360903090929i5bcb22c2ga8ada5585fa973a5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D6AAFFC90CB00C45840F39D6897ED909010B9823@nsg19.nurs.ualberta.ca>


I would agree Lena - certainly the work by Pawson and Tilley in realist evaluation seems to use mechanisms in at least three subtly different ways and does not formerly operationalize the term. I guess I am old fashioned and like the latter...

Their most consistent line is that tendencies in outcomes are present due to the effects of mechanisms and contexts - which provide power and capacity to various underlying factors that can then causally effect outcomes. Having used the approach with real people and settings, I would say the line between a mechanism and a context can be gray and very muddied when factors interact in complex ways.

Alex


AM Clark PhD BA (Hons) RN 
Associate Professor, AHFMR Population Health Investigator, CIHR New Investigator
International Institute for Qualitative Methodology Affiliate Scholar

Room CSB 4-112
Faculty of Nursing University of Alberta, Edmonton, AB. Canada 
T6G2G3 
Tel:  001 780 492 8347 
Fax: 001 780 492 2551





On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 11:23 AM, Lena Gunnarsson <lena.gunnarsson at oru.se>wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I have read quite a lot of critical realist texts by now, but still I
> can't really figure out what exactly is the difference between powers,
> tendencies and mechanisms. At any rate, the anaytical distinctions
> between them don't seem perfectly clear-cut. Is this confusion of mine
> just a reflection of the ambiguities within the concepts or do I read
> badly??
>
> Best
> Lena
>
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>
_______________________________________________
Critical-Realism mailing list
Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism



From Par.Engholm at soc.uu.se  Mon Mar  9 10:51:51 2009
From: Par.Engholm at soc.uu.se (Par Engholm)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 17:51:51 +0100
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms
In-Reply-To: <49B54278.6080102@oru.se>
References: <49B54278.6080102@oru.se>
Message-ID: <64F9587C922345C4BEE79E1A2FB6236F@uppsala0b464dd>

Hi Lena and all others,
I really agree with the need to clarify these issues. There is some
discussion on it at the end of A Realist Theory of Science. I don't have it
here right now, so I can't give you any specification...

Entities in the world are stratified and structured in ways which make them
both powerful in the sense of able to effect a change in other things and
undergo change. Thus matter attracts matter and therefore bodies with mass
have a causal structure, or dispositional power to attract other bodies.
This is the causal structure of gravitation. The exact causal mechanism
behind this gravitational structure which makes for the transfactual
tendency of bodies to fall to the ground is yet not sufficiently
investigated, and this was also one of the things that made Newton reluctant
to embrace his own theory, as it was based upon what he called 'occult'
properties; but there are physicists who talk of an exchange of gravitons
between bodies which could provide the causal mechanism of gravitation. I am
too ignorant in these matters to know much about this.
Next, there is the concept of liability, which perhaps could be defined as a
kind of proneness to undergo change: malleability perhaps.

Concrete entities thus have these structures due to there constitution and
in science there is a dialectic between taxonomic and explanatory knowledge,
between determining what entities there are in the world, and how they are
constituted in terms of processes and mechanisms operating on other, usually
more fundamental, levels.

I hope you get the gist of my argument...

You can also find a reference to some different possible meanings of
'tendency' in Dialectic, p 78...

Cheers,
P?r



*******************************************************
Par Engholm
Uppsala University
Department of Sociology
http://www.soc.uu.se/kontaktpers.php?id=62
Mobile: +46 709783546
 
Journal of Critical Realism
http://www.equinoxjournals.com/ojs/index.php/JCR/index



-----Original Message-----
From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu
[mailto:critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Lena
Gunnarsson
Sent: 09 March 2009 17:23
To: critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms

Hi everyone,

I have read quite a lot of critical realist texts by now, but still I 
can't really figure out what exactly is the difference between powers, 
tendencies and mechanisms. At any rate, the anaytical distinctions 
between them don't seem perfectly clear-cut. Is this confusion of mine 
just a reflection of the ambiguities within the concepts or do I read 
badly??

Best
Lena

_______________________________________________
Critical-Realism mailing list
Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism



From Par.Engholm at soc.uu.se  Mon Mar  9 11:10:00 2009
From: Par.Engholm at soc.uu.se (Par Engholm)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 18:10:00 +0100
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms
In-Reply-To: <D6AAFFC90CB00C45840F39D6897ED909010B9823@nsg19.nurs.ualberta.ca>
References: <49B54278.6080102@oru.se><6ad241360903090929i5bcb22c2ga8ada5585fa973a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<D6AAFFC90CB00C45840F39D6897ED909010B9823@nsg19.nurs.ualberta.ca>
Message-ID: <8BABFE2A8CB44D9CBB5C5161649E44E1@uppsala0b464dd>

Yes, a book that is very good in explaining the concept of mechanism is 
Pawson, Ray (1989) A Measure for Measures. A Manifesto for Empirical
Sociology, London/New York: Routledge
but I would also want to recommend the first chapter of 
Wright, Erik Olin (1978) Class, Crisis and the State, London/New York: Verso
in which the Althusserian concept of 'structural causality' is fleshed out.

Concrete universals are dispositional entities with transfactual
efficacies...

Best,
P?r

*******************************************************
Par Engholm
Uppsala University
Department of Sociology
http://www.soc.uu.se/kontaktpers.php?id=62
Mobile: +46 709783546
 
Journal of Critical Realism
http://www.equinoxjournals.com/ojs/index.php/JCR/index

-----Original Message-----
From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu
[mailto:critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Alex
Clark
Sent: 09 March 2009 17:38
To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List
Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms


I would agree Lena - certainly the work by Pawson and Tilley in realist
evaluation seems to use mechanisms in at least three subtly different ways
and does not formerly operationalize the term. I guess I am old fashioned
and like the latter...

Their most consistent line is that tendencies in outcomes are present due to
the effects of mechanisms and contexts - which provide power and capacity to
various underlying factors that can then causally effect outcomes. Having
used the approach with real people and settings, I would say the line
between a mechanism and a context can be gray and very muddied when factors
interact in complex ways.

Alex


AM Clark PhD BA (Hons) RN 
Associate Professor, AHFMR Population Health Investigator, CIHR New
Investigator
International Institute for Qualitative Methodology Affiliate Scholar

Room CSB 4-112
Faculty of Nursing University of Alberta, Edmonton, AB. Canada 
T6G2G3 
Tel:  001 780 492 8347 
Fax: 001 780 492 2551





On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 11:23 AM, Lena Gunnarsson
<lena.gunnarsson at oru.se>wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I have read quite a lot of critical realist texts by now, but still I
> can't really figure out what exactly is the difference between powers,
> tendencies and mechanisms. At any rate, the anaytical distinctions
> between them don't seem perfectly clear-cut. Is this confusion of mine
> just a reflection of the ambiguities within the concepts or do I read
> badly??
>
> Best
> Lena
>
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>
_______________________________________________
Critical-Realism mailing list
Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism


_______________________________________________
Critical-Realism mailing list
Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism



From mwj1 at bolton.ac.uk  Mon Mar  9 12:03:06 2009
From: mwj1 at bolton.ac.uk (Mark Johnson)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 18:03:06 +0000
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms
In-Reply-To: <8BABFE2A8CB44D9CBB5C5161649E44E1@uppsala0b464dd>
References: <49B54278.6080102@oru.se>
	<6ad241360903090929i5bcb22c2ga8ada5585fa973a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<D6AAFFC90CB00C45840F39D6897ED909010B9823@nsg19.nurs.ualberta.ca>
	<8BABFE2A8CB44D9CBB5C5161649E44E1@uppsala0b464dd>
Message-ID: <d4aa99eb0903091103u1631083cic613a6dc2b1fb25a@mail.gmail.com>

I've done a lot of work with Pawson and Tilley now and I would say that
there is a further question concerning perception. Their conception of
realistic evaluation in practice involves some degree of mutual teaching and
learning between stakeholders (you show me your mechanism, I'll show you
mine...)  (very similar to Peter Checkland's work, by the way), but when we
perceive a mechanism, what are we actually perceiving? I don't think P&T go
this far (maybe they think it's not necessary), but actually I think the
mechanisms that arise from their work are, on the whole, rather weak.
One problem seems to lie in the difference between a mechanism and its
description, and the fact that the means we have for describing mechanisms
are crude and often constrained by language. In some recent work, I've
experimented with animating mechanisms in group evaluation. This seems to
help the process, but still raises the question about what we are
perceiving. Some sort of 'vicarious recognition' which has organisational
implications is about as close as I can get to an answer.

Mark

On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 5:10 PM, Par Engholm <Par.Engholm at soc.uu.se> wrote:

> Yes, a book that is very good in explaining the concept of mechanism is
> Pawson, Ray (1989) A Measure for Measures. A Manifesto for Empirical
> Sociology, London/New York: Routledge
> but I would also want to recommend the first chapter of
> Wright, Erik Olin (1978) Class, Crisis and the State, London/New York:
> Verso
> in which the Althusserian concept of 'structural causality' is fleshed out.
>
> Concrete universals are dispositional entities with transfactual
> efficacies...
>
> Best,
> P?r
>
> *******************************************************
> Par Engholm
> Uppsala University
> Department of Sociology
> http://www.soc.uu.se/kontaktpers.php?id=62
> Mobile: +46 709783546
>
> Journal of Critical Realism
> http://www.equinoxjournals.com/ojs/index.php/JCR/index
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu
> [mailto:critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Alex
> Clark
> Sent: 09 March 2009 17:38
> To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List
> Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms
>
>
> I would agree Lena - certainly the work by Pawson and Tilley in realist
> evaluation seems to use mechanisms in at least three subtly different ways
> and does not formerly operationalize the term. I guess I am old fashioned
> and like the latter...
>
> Their most consistent line is that tendencies in outcomes are present due
> to
> the effects of mechanisms and contexts - which provide power and capacity
> to
> various underlying factors that can then causally effect outcomes. Having
> used the approach with real people and settings, I would say the line
> between a mechanism and a context can be gray and very muddied when factors
> interact in complex ways.
>
> Alex
>
>
> AM Clark PhD BA (Hons) RN
> Associate Professor, AHFMR Population Health Investigator, CIHR New
> Investigator
> International Institute for Qualitative Methodology Affiliate Scholar
>
> Room CSB 4-112
> Faculty of Nursing University of Alberta, Edmonton, AB. Canada
> T6G2G3
> Tel:  001 780 492 8347
> Fax: 001 780 492 2551
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 11:23 AM, Lena Gunnarsson
> <lena.gunnarsson at oru.se>wrote:
>
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > I have read quite a lot of critical realist texts by now, but still I
> > can't really figure out what exactly is the difference between powers,
> > tendencies and mechanisms. At any rate, the anaytical distinctions
> > between them don't seem perfectly clear-cut. Is this confusion of mine
> > just a reflection of the ambiguities within the concepts or do I read
> > badly??
> >
> > Best
> > Lena
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Critical-Realism mailing list
> > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>



-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Johnson
Institute for Educational Cybernetics
University of Bolton
BL3 5AB
Tel. 01204 903567
Mob. 0778 6064505

From Hans.Despain at nichols.edu  Mon Mar  9 14:04:19 2009
From: Hans.Despain at nichols.edu (Despain, Hans G)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 16:04:19 -0400
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms
In-Reply-To: <49B54278.6080102@oru.se>
References: <49B54278.6080102@oru.se>
Message-ID: <CF5E68A7D4B2F7438DDD9199F67F54420DCEF5AED3@mb01.bison.nichols.edu>

Dear Lena,

You are not reading "badly," but quite the reverse you are reading carefully and well.

Steve Fleetwood presented a paper on this in London, last summer, which I thought was quite good. From my memory he concludes not only are there ambiguities in the critical realist use of such terms and concepts, but some deeper problems in the usage and misusage of these terms and concepts.

The JCR has a special issue coming out dedicated to these issues, perhaps Mervyn could weigh-in here.
Also, you may find the entries in the ?Dictionary of Critical Realism? useful.

Some early critiques of critical realism were aimed at Bhaskar's usage of the term "mechanism" in *Realist Theory of Science*, and the ambiguities of "power" and "tendencies."

It seems to me the problem is really not one of epistemology, nor necessarily analytical precession.  Rather it is an ontological phenomenon.  Our perception of reality is limited and our language clumsy and often haphazard in its historical development.

Plato says affectively, in the Republic (438a ? ff, Book VI, and 532a ? ff), ambiguity in the ways we discuss actions (power), opposites (liability) and motion (tendency) generates Dialectic. In turn, Dialectic for Plato seems to be a way to *think* and *talk* about the ontology of both relationships (between concepts, between things, between institutions, and between people) and change.  In this sense Plato certainly saw the issue as ontological, with very serious ambiguous, paradoxical, and contradictory epistemological implications, which necessitates philosophy and science.

In his *Dialectic* Bhaskar is also much more anxious to philosophize change and personal action.  Thus the terms power and tendency receive significant refinement and the term mechanism is all but abandoned.

Sincerely,

Hans
____________________________________
From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu [critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Lena Gunnarsson [lena.gunnarsson at oru.se]
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 12:23 PM
To: critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms

Hi everyone,

I have read quite a lot of critical realist texts by now, but still I
can't really figure out what exactly is the difference between powers,
tendencies and mechanisms. At any rate, the anaytical distinctions
between them don't seem perfectly clear-cut. Is this confusion of mine
just a reflection of the ambiguities within the concepts or do I read
badly??

Best
Lena

_______________________________________________
Critical-Realism mailing list
Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism

The information contained in this e-mail is confidential.  Please do not cross-post.  This communication is intended only for the use of the addressee(s) and as such is privileged and confidential.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, reliance, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication may be prohibited by law.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it and all copies from your system.  Thank you.


From echna at gmx.net  Tue Mar 10 02:00:45 2009
From: echna at gmx.net (echna)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 09:00:45 +0100
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms
In-Reply-To: <CF5E68A7D4B2F7438DDD9199F67F54420DCEF5AED3@mb01.bison.nichols.edu>
References: <49B54278.6080102@oru.se>
	<CF5E68A7D4B2F7438DDD9199F67F54420DCEF5AED3@mb01.bison.nichols.edu>
Message-ID: <49B61E2D.7090507@gmx.net>

Hi Lena, hi all,

Andrew Collier tries to disambiguate the terms of powers, mechanisms and 
tendencies in his introduction to Bhaskar?s philosophy on the pages 
61-65. To be honest, I?m not entirely convinced what by gis arguments 
there, but maybe it is a good starting point for analyzing Bhaskar?s 
concept again. On the differentiation between mechanisms and powers, for 
example, Collier writes (p. 62):

"?Power is a non-technical term, designating what something can do. 
?Generative mechanism?is a technical term, designating a ?real something 
over and above and independent of the patterns of events? (RTS, p.50), 
which normally endures longer than any pattern of events it generates. A 
generative mechanism, we might say, is that aspect of the structure of a 
thing by virtue of which it has a certain power"

Anyhow, both terms still  seem to be interchangable in the definition of 
Collier . I also don?t get the differentiation between a technical and a 
non technical term. In this sense the term of a power seems to be 
redundant and disposable.

best wishes,
e

Despain, Hans G schrieb:
> Dear Lena,
>
> You are not reading "badly," but quite the reverse you are reading carefully and well.
>
> Steve Fleetwood presented a paper on this in London, last summer, which I thought was quite good. From my memory he concludes not only are there ambiguities in the critical realist use of such terms and concepts, but some deeper problems in the usage and misusage of these terms and concepts.
>
> The JCR has a special issue coming out dedicated to these issues, perhaps Mervyn could weigh-in here.
> Also, you may find the entries in the ?Dictionary of Critical Realism? useful.
>
> Some early critiques of critical realism were aimed at Bhaskar's usage of the term "mechanism" in *Realist Theory of Science*, and the ambiguities of "power" and "tendencies."
>
> It seems to me the problem is really not one of epistemology, nor necessarily analytical precession.  Rather it is an ontological phenomenon.  Our perception of reality is limited and our language clumsy and often haphazard in its historical development.
>
> Plato says affectively, in the Republic (438a ? ff, Book VI, and 532a ? ff), ambiguity in the ways we discuss actions (power), opposites (liability) and motion (tendency) generates Dialectic. In turn, Dialectic for Plato seems to be a way to *think* and *talk* about the ontology of both relationships (between concepts, between things, between institutions, and between people) and change.  In this sense Plato certainly saw the issue as ontological, with very serious ambiguous, paradoxical, and contradictory epistemological implications, which necessitates philosophy and science.
>
> In his *Dialectic* Bhaskar is also much more anxious to philosophize change and personal action.  Thus the terms power and tendency receive significant refinement and the term mechanism is all but abandoned.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Hans
> ____________________________________
> From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu [critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Lena Gunnarsson [lena.gunnarsson at oru.se]
> Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 12:23 PM
> To: critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> Subject: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I have read quite a lot of critical realist texts by now, but still I
> can't really figure out what exactly is the difference between powers,
> tendencies and mechanisms. At any rate, the anaytical distinctions
> between them don't seem perfectly clear-cut. Is this confusion of mine
> just a reflection of the ambiguities within the concepts or do I read
> badly??
>
> Best
> Lena
>
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>
> The information contained in this e-mail is confidential.  Please do not cross-post.  This communication is intended only for the use of the addressee(s) and as such is privileged and confidential.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, reliance, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication may be prohibited by law.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it and all copies from your system.  Thank you.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>
>   



From mwj1 at bolton.ac.uk  Tue Mar 10 02:52:46 2009
From: mwj1 at bolton.ac.uk (Mark Johnson)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 08:52:46 +0000
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms
In-Reply-To: <49B61E2D.7090507@gmx.net>
References: <49B54278.6080102@oru.se>
	<CF5E68A7D4B2F7438DDD9199F67F54420DCEF5AED3@mb01.bison.nichols.edu>
	<49B61E2D.7090507@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <d4aa99eb0903100152r40e510b0h1349e51a98ac67d@mail.gmail.com>

Just one further thought. Instead of asking about the distinction between
power, mechanism, etc in the form "what is ...", it can useful instead to
ask "what does a mechanism *do*?", "what does power *do*?", etc. Of course,
this is a bit like asking "what is the mechanism of mechanism?"... but
perhaps it's important to realise that's the territory we are in with these
questions and distinctions.

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 8:00 AM, echna <echna at gmx.net> wrote:

> Hi Lena, hi all,
>
> Andrew Collier tries to disambiguate the terms of powers, mechanisms and
> tendencies in his introduction to Bhaskar?s philosophy on the pages
> 61-65. To be honest, I?m not entirely convinced what by gis arguments
> there, but maybe it is a good starting point for analyzing Bhaskar?s
> concept again. On the differentiation between mechanisms and powers, for
> example, Collier writes (p. 62):
>
> "?Power is a non-technical term, designating what something can do.
> ?Generative mechanism?is a technical term, designating a ?real something
> over and above and independent of the patterns of events? (RTS, p.50),
> which normally endures longer than any pattern of events it generates. A
> generative mechanism, we might say, is that aspect of the structure of a
> thing by virtue of which it has a certain power"
>
> Anyhow, both terms still  seem to be interchangable in the definition of
> Collier . I also don?t get the differentiation between a technical and a
> non technical term. In this sense the term of a power seems to be
> redundant and disposable.
>
> best wishes,
> e
>
> Despain, Hans G schrieb:
> > Dear Lena,
> >
> > You are not reading "badly," but quite the reverse you are reading
> carefully and well.
> >
> > Steve Fleetwood presented a paper on this in London, last summer, which I
> thought was quite good. From my memory he concludes not only are there
> ambiguities in the critical realist use of such terms and concepts, but some
> deeper problems in the usage and misusage of these terms and concepts.
> >
> > The JCR has a special issue coming out dedicated to these issues, perhaps
> Mervyn could weigh-in here.
> > Also, you may find the entries in the ?Dictionary of Critical Realism?
> useful.
> >
> > Some early critiques of critical realism were aimed at Bhaskar's usage of
> the term "mechanism" in *Realist Theory of Science*, and the ambiguities of
> "power" and "tendencies."
> >
> > It seems to me the problem is really not one of epistemology, nor
> necessarily analytical precession.  Rather it is an ontological phenomenon.
>  Our perception of reality is limited and our language clumsy and often
> haphazard in its historical development.
> >
> > Plato says affectively, in the Republic (438a ? ff, Book VI, and 532a ?
> ff), ambiguity in the ways we discuss actions (power), opposites (liability)
> and motion (tendency) generates Dialectic. In turn, Dialectic for Plato
> seems to be a way to *think* and *talk* about the ontology of both
> relationships (between concepts, between things, between institutions, and
> between people) and change.  In this sense Plato certainly saw the issue as
> ontological, with very serious ambiguous, paradoxical, and contradictory
> epistemological implications, which necessitates philosophy and science.
> >
> > In his *Dialectic* Bhaskar is also much more anxious to philosophize
> change and personal action.  Thus the terms power and tendency receive
> significant refinement and the term mechanism is all but abandoned.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Hans
> > ____________________________________
> > From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu [
> critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Lena Gunnarsson
> [lena.gunnarsson at oru.se]
> > Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 12:23 PM
> > To: critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> > Subject: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms
> >
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > I have read quite a lot of critical realist texts by now, but still I
> > can't really figure out what exactly is the difference between powers,
> > tendencies and mechanisms. At any rate, the anaytical distinctions
> > between them don't seem perfectly clear-cut. Is this confusion of mine
> > just a reflection of the ambiguities within the concepts or do I read
> > badly??
> >
> > Best
> > Lena
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Critical-Realism mailing list
> > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
> >
> > The information contained in this e-mail is confidential.  Please do not
> cross-post.  This communication is intended only for the use of the
> addressee(s) and as such is privileged and confidential.  If you are not the
> intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, reliance,
> disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication may be prohibited
> by law.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify the
> sender immediately and delete it and all copies from your system.  Thank
> you.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Critical-Realism mailing list
> > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>



-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Johnson
Institute for Educational Cybernetics
University of Bolton
BL3 5AB
Tel. 01204 903567
Mob. 0778 6064505

From d.eldervass at ntlworld.com  Tue Mar 10 03:50:59 2009
From: d.eldervass at ntlworld.com (Dave Elder-Vass)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 09:50:59 -0000
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms
References: <49B54278.6080102@oru.se><CF5E68A7D4B2F7438DDD9199F67F54420DCEF5AED3@mb01.bison.nichols.edu><49B61E2D.7090507@gmx.net>
	<d4aa99eb0903100152r40e510b0h1349e51a98ac67d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5820151C8234429B98993F442BF676CC@Presario>

I would say (and I think this is in the spirit at least of Bhaskar's Realist 
Theory of Science):

(1) a power is the ability of a thing to have a certain type of causal 
effect

(2) powers exist as tendencies - a thing with a certain power has a tendency 
to produce the corresponding effect, but this is only a tendency and not a 
law because (a) such powers may depend on the presence of other powers and 
liabilities to be able to work, e.g. my power to speak depends on the 
presence of air; (b) such powers may be frustrated by the presence of 
counteracting powers, e.g. the power of a dog to run after a ball may be 
frustrated by the presence of a person holding them by a leash.

(3) mechanisms are the processes operating within things that give them 
their powers, e.g. the process of interaction between my brain, lungs, 
windpipe, vocal cords, mouth, etc, that underpins my power to speak

PS: one earlier contributor suggested (I think, from memory) that it is 
difficult to identify mechanisms because events often depend on both 
internal and external factors. I would say that mechanisms are always 
internal processes, but events are produced by the interacting powers of 
different things (Bhaskar calls this co-determination or multiple 
determination) so that there will usually be multiple mechanisms at work in 
the causation of any given event. So, we explain events by identifying the 
powers that interacted to produce them, and we explain powers by identifying 
the mechanisms responsible for them.

No doubt I have left out some important ramifications, but this is often the 
price of clarity. The interesting question, I think, is whether this schema 
is universally valid or whether there are cases of causation in which it 
doesn't work.

I hope this helps,

Dave

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Johnson" <mwj1 at bolton.ac.uk>
To: "Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List" 
<critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
Sent: 10 March 2009 08:52
Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms


Just one further thought. Instead of asking about the distinction between
power, mechanism, etc in the form "what is ...", it can useful instead to
ask "what does a mechanism *do*?", "what does power *do*?", etc. Of course,
this is a bit like asking "what is the mechanism of mechanism?"... but
perhaps it's important to realise that's the territory we are in with these
questions and distinctions.

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 8:00 AM, echna <echna at gmx.net> wrote:

> Hi Lena, hi all,
>
> Andrew Collier tries to disambiguate the terms of powers, mechanisms and
> tendencies in his introduction to Bhaskar?s philosophy on the pages
> 61-65. To be honest, I?m not entirely convinced what by gis arguments
> there, but maybe it is a good starting point for analyzing Bhaskar?s
> concept again. On the differentiation between mechanisms and powers, for
> example, Collier writes (p. 62):
>
> "?Power is a non-technical term, designating what something can do.
> ?Generative mechanism?is a technical term, designating a ?real something
> over and above and independent of the patterns of events? (RTS, p.50),
> which normally endures longer than any pattern of events it generates. A
> generative mechanism, we might say, is that aspect of the structure of a
> thing by virtue of which it has a certain power"
>
> Anyhow, both terms still  seem to be interchangable in the definition of
> Collier . I also don?t get the differentiation between a technical and a
> non technical term. In this sense the term of a power seems to be
> redundant and disposable.
>
> best wishes,
> e
>
> Despain, Hans G schrieb:
> > Dear Lena,
> >
> > You are not reading "badly," but quite the reverse you are reading
> carefully and well.
> >
> > Steve Fleetwood presented a paper on this in London, last summer, which 
> > I
> thought was quite good. From my memory he concludes not only are there
> ambiguities in the critical realist use of such terms and concepts, but 
> some
> deeper problems in the usage and misusage of these terms and concepts.
> >
> > The JCR has a special issue coming out dedicated to these issues, 
> > perhaps
> Mervyn could weigh-in here.
> > Also, you may find the entries in the ?Dictionary of Critical Realism?
> useful.
> >
> > Some early critiques of critical realism were aimed at Bhaskar's usage 
> > of
> the term "mechanism" in *Realist Theory of Science*, and the ambiguities 
> of
> "power" and "tendencies."
> >
> > It seems to me the problem is really not one of epistemology, nor
> necessarily analytical precession.  Rather it is an ontological 
> phenomenon.
>  Our perception of reality is limited and our language clumsy and often
> haphazard in its historical development.
> >
> > Plato says affectively, in the Republic (438a ? ff, Book VI, and 532a ?
> ff), ambiguity in the ways we discuss actions (power), opposites 
> (liability)
> and motion (tendency) generates Dialectic. In turn, Dialectic for Plato
> seems to be a way to *think* and *talk* about the ontology of both
> relationships (between concepts, between things, between institutions, and
> between people) and change.  In this sense Plato certainly saw the issue 
> as
> ontological, with very serious ambiguous, paradoxical, and contradictory
> epistemological implications, which necessitates philosophy and science.
> >
> > In his *Dialectic* Bhaskar is also much more anxious to philosophize
> change and personal action.  Thus the terms power and tendency receive
> significant refinement and the term mechanism is all but abandoned.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Hans
> > ____________________________________
> > From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu [
> critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Lena Gunnarsson
> [lena.gunnarsson at oru.se]
> > Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 12:23 PM
> > To: critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> > Subject: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms
> >
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > I have read quite a lot of critical realist texts by now, but still I
> > can't really figure out what exactly is the difference between powers,
> > tendencies and mechanisms. At any rate, the anaytical distinctions
> > between them don't seem perfectly clear-cut. Is this confusion of mine
> > just a reflection of the ambiguities within the concepts or do I read
> > badly??
> >
> > Best
> > Lena
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Critical-Realism mailing list
> > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
> >
> > The information contained in this e-mail is confidential.  Please do not
> cross-post.  This communication is intended only for the use of the
> addressee(s) and as such is privileged and confidential.  If you are not 
> the
> intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, reliance,
> disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication may be 
> prohibited
> by law.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify 
> the
> sender immediately and delete it and all copies from your system.  Thank
> you.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Critical-Realism mailing list
> > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>



-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Johnson
Institute for Educational Cybernetics
University of Bolton
BL3 5AB
Tel. 01204 903567
Mob. 0778 6064505
_______________________________________________
Critical-Realism mailing list
Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism



From mwj1 at bolton.ac.uk  Tue Mar 10 04:12:11 2009
From: mwj1 at bolton.ac.uk (Mark Johnson)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 10:12:11 +0000
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms
In-Reply-To: <5820151C8234429B98993F442BF676CC@Presario>
References: <49B54278.6080102@oru.se>
	<CF5E68A7D4B2F7438DDD9199F67F54420DCEF5AED3@mb01.bison.nichols.edu>
	<49B61E2D.7090507@gmx.net>
	<d4aa99eb0903100152r40e510b0h1349e51a98ac67d@mail.gmail.com>
	<5820151C8234429B98993F442BF676CC@Presario>
Message-ID: <d4aa99eb0903100312n3965e7e6if7c228b32d5f8a73@mail.gmail.com>

so powers and tendencies are things that mechanisms do?that sounds
reasonable.

But mechanisms also do something in 'telling' us they are a mechanism, do
they not?

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 9:50 AM, Dave Elder-Vass
<d.eldervass at ntlworld.com>wrote:

> I would say (and I think this is in the spirit at least of Bhaskar's
> Realist
> Theory of Science):
>
> (1) a power is the ability of a thing to have a certain type of causal
> effect
>
> (2) powers exist as tendencies - a thing with a certain power has a
> tendency
> to produce the corresponding effect, but this is only a tendency and not a
> law because (a) such powers may depend on the presence of other powers and
> liabilities to be able to work, e.g. my power to speak depends on the
> presence of air; (b) such powers may be frustrated by the presence of
> counteracting powers, e.g. the power of a dog to run after a ball may be
> frustrated by the presence of a person holding them by a leash.
>
> (3) mechanisms are the processes operating within things that give them
> their powers, e.g. the process of interaction between my brain, lungs,
> windpipe, vocal cords, mouth, etc, that underpins my power to speak
>
> PS: one earlier contributor suggested (I think, from memory) that it is
> difficult to identify mechanisms because events often depend on both
> internal and external factors. I would say that mechanisms are always
> internal processes, but events are produced by the interacting powers of
> different things (Bhaskar calls this co-determination or multiple
> determination) so that there will usually be multiple mechanisms at work in
> the causation of any given event. So, we explain events by identifying the
> powers that interacted to produce them, and we explain powers by
> identifying
> the mechanisms responsible for them.
>
> No doubt I have left out some important ramifications, but this is often
> the
> price of clarity. The interesting question, I think, is whether this schema
> is universally valid or whether there are cases of causation in which it
> doesn't work.
>
> I hope this helps,
>
> Dave
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Johnson" <mwj1 at bolton.ac.uk>
> To: "Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List"
> <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
> Sent: 10 March 2009 08:52
> Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms
>
>
> Just one further thought. Instead of asking about the distinction between
> power, mechanism, etc in the form "what is ...", it can useful instead to
> ask "what does a mechanism *do*?", "what does power *do*?", etc. Of course,
> this is a bit like asking "what is the mechanism of mechanism?"... but
> perhaps it's important to realise that's the territory we are in with these
> questions and distinctions.
>
> On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 8:00 AM, echna <echna at gmx.net> wrote:
>
> > Hi Lena, hi all,
> >
> > Andrew Collier tries to disambiguate the terms of powers, mechanisms and
> > tendencies in his introduction to Bhaskar?s philosophy on the pages
> > 61-65. To be honest, I?m not entirely convinced what by gis arguments
> > there, but maybe it is a good starting point for analyzing Bhaskar?s
> > concept again. On the differentiation between mechanisms and powers, for
> > example, Collier writes (p. 62):
> >
> > "?Power is a non-technical term, designating what something can do.
> > ?Generative mechanism?is a technical term, designating a ?real something
> > over and above and independent of the patterns of events? (RTS, p.50),
> > which normally endures longer than any pattern of events it generates. A
> > generative mechanism, we might say, is that aspect of the structure of a
> > thing by virtue of which it has a certain power"
> >
> > Anyhow, both terms still  seem to be interchangable in the definition of
> > Collier . I also don?t get the differentiation between a technical and a
> > non technical term. In this sense the term of a power seems to be
> > redundant and disposable.
> >
> > best wishes,
> > e
> >
> > Despain, Hans G schrieb:
> > > Dear Lena,
> > >
> > > You are not reading "badly," but quite the reverse you are reading
> > carefully and well.
> > >
> > > Steve Fleetwood presented a paper on this in London, last summer, which
> > > I
> > thought was quite good. From my memory he concludes not only are there
> > ambiguities in the critical realist use of such terms and concepts, but
> > some
> > deeper problems in the usage and misusage of these terms and concepts.
> > >
> > > The JCR has a special issue coming out dedicated to these issues,
> > > perhaps
> > Mervyn could weigh-in here.
> > > Also, you may find the entries in the ?Dictionary of Critical Realism?
> > useful.
> > >
> > > Some early critiques of critical realism were aimed at Bhaskar's usage
> > > of
> > the term "mechanism" in *Realist Theory of Science*, and the ambiguities
> > of
> > "power" and "tendencies."
> > >
> > > It seems to me the problem is really not one of epistemology, nor
> > necessarily analytical precession.  Rather it is an ontological
> > phenomenon.
> >  Our perception of reality is limited and our language clumsy and often
> > haphazard in its historical development.
> > >
> > > Plato says affectively, in the Republic (438a ? ff, Book VI, and 532a ?
> > ff), ambiguity in the ways we discuss actions (power), opposites
> > (liability)
> > and motion (tendency) generates Dialectic. In turn, Dialectic for Plato
> > seems to be a way to *think* and *talk* about the ontology of both
> > relationships (between concepts, between things, between institutions,
> and
> > between people) and change.  In this sense Plato certainly saw the issue
> > as
> > ontological, with very serious ambiguous, paradoxical, and contradictory
> > epistemological implications, which necessitates philosophy and science.
> > >
> > > In his *Dialectic* Bhaskar is also much more anxious to philosophize
> > change and personal action.  Thus the terms power and tendency receive
> > significant refinement and the term mechanism is all but abandoned.
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > >
> > > Hans
> > > ____________________________________
> > > From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu [
> > critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Lena
> Gunnarsson
> > [lena.gunnarsson at oru.se]
> > > Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 12:23 PM
> > > To: critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> > > Subject: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms
> > >
> > > Hi everyone,
> > >
> > > I have read quite a lot of critical realist texts by now, but still I
> > > can't really figure out what exactly is the difference between powers,
> > > tendencies and mechanisms. At any rate, the anaytical distinctions
> > > between them don't seem perfectly clear-cut. Is this confusion of mine
> > > just a reflection of the ambiguities within the concepts or do I read
> > > badly??
> > >
> > > Best
> > > Lena
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Critical-Realism mailing list
> > > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> > > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
> > >
> > > The information contained in this e-mail is confidential.  Please do
> not
> > cross-post.  This communication is intended only for the use of the
> > addressee(s) and as such is privileged and confidential.  If you are not
> > the
> > intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, reliance,
> > disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication may be
> > prohibited
> > by law.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify
> > the
> > sender immediately and delete it and all copies from your system.  Thank
> > you.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Critical-Realism mailing list
> > > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> > > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Critical-Realism mailing list
> > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Mark Johnson
> Institute for Educational Cybernetics
> University of Bolton
> BL3 5AB
> Tel. 01204 903567
> Mob. 0778 6064505
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>



-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Johnson
Institute for Educational Cybernetics
University of Bolton
BL3 5AB
Tel. 01204 903567
Mob. 0778 6064505

From Hans.Despain at nichols.edu  Tue Mar 10 05:01:12 2009
From: Hans.Despain at nichols.edu (Despain, Hans G)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 07:01:12 -0400
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms
In-Reply-To: <5820151C8234429B98993F442BF676CC@Presario>
References: <49B54278.6080102@oru.se><CF5E68A7D4B2F7438DDD9199F67F54420DCEF5AED3@mb01.bison.nichols.edu><49B61E2D.7090507@gmx.net>
	<d4aa99eb0903100152r40e510b0h1349e51a98ac67d@mail.gmail.com>,
	<5820151C8234429B98993F442BF676CC@Presario>
Message-ID: <CF5E68A7D4B2F7438DDD9199F67F54420DCEF5AED4@mb01.bison.nichols.edu>

Dave provides a very nice distinction between powers, tendencies, and mechanisms.

I think this is exactly consistent with Bhaskar's postscript in RTS and Collier's Introduction.

However, it real does only beg the question.  Our we consisent with these distinctions.  Besides, ontologically we run into several problems.

Mark is trying to get at this when he says mechanisms "tell" us things.  This is an important point, but it is us that impose the "telling," mechanisms act through powers and liablities as tendencies.  We often come to know mechanisms only by their effects, i.e. by their powers and tendencies.  Thus, we begin to define generative mechanisms by the *actual* and *empirical* powers, (and as pointed out in your distinctions) more acccurately by manifest tendencies in the domains of the actual and empirical that we are able to identify.  It is through these tendencies in the domains of the acutal and empirical that we can identify powers and liablities of things (e.g. generative mechanisms, which btw is overly mechanial term for my taste).

The problem arises because some generative mechanisms are defined purely in terms of powers, liablities, and tendencies, e.g. gravity (as gestered at by Par in an earlier post).  Thus, if a tendency changes is it another mechanism counteracting, or a power or liability previously unidentified?  By the way, this is a rather serious problem in political economy and the analysis of crisis. Dave in sociology are not the problems also serious.  For example the generative mechanism of racism, or class as a generative mechanism.

At least in part racism and class distinctions are defined by their effects.  But then it is difficult to analytically define them.  If we are overly analytical, e.g. class is a certain occupation or income amount, or racism is hatred based on race, these phenomena as generative mechanisms become stale.

sincerely,

Hans



________________________________________
From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu [critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Dave Elder-Vass [d.eldervass at ntlworld.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 5:50 AM
To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List
Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms

I would say (and I think this is in the spirit at least of Bhaskar's Realist
Theory of Science):

(1) a power is the ability of a thing to have a certain type of causal
effect

(2) powers exist as tendencies - a thing with a certain power has a tendency
to produce the corresponding effect, but this is only a tendency and not a
law because (a) such powers may depend on the presence of other powers and
liabilities to be able to work, e.g. my power to speak depends on the
presence of air; (b) such powers may be frustrated by the presence of
counteracting powers, e.g. the power of a dog to run after a ball may be
frustrated by the presence of a person holding them by a leash.

(3) mechanisms are the processes operating within things that give them
their powers, e.g. the process of interaction between my brain, lungs,
windpipe, vocal cords, mouth, etc, that underpins my power to speak

PS: one earlier contributor suggested (I think, from memory) that it is
difficult to identify mechanisms because events often depend on both
internal and external factors. I would say that mechanisms are always
internal processes, but events are produced by the interacting powers of
different things (Bhaskar calls this co-determination or multiple
determination) so that there will usually be multiple mechanisms at work in
the causation of any given event. So, we explain events by identifying the
powers that interacted to produce them, and we explain powers by identifying
the mechanisms responsible for them.

No doubt I have left out some important ramifications, but this is often the
price of clarity. The interesting question, I think, is whether this schema
is universally valid or whether there are cases of causation in which it
doesn't work.

I hope this helps,

Dave

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Johnson" <mwj1 at bolton.ac.uk>
To: "Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List"
<critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
Sent: 10 March 2009 08:52
Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms


Just one further thought. Instead of asking about the distinction between
power, mechanism, etc in the form "what is ...", it can useful instead to
ask "what does a mechanism *do*?", "what does power *do*?", etc. Of course,
this is a bit like asking "what is the mechanism of mechanism?"... but
perhaps it's important to realise that's the territory we are in with these
questions and distinctions.

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 8:00 AM, echna <echna at gmx.net> wrote:

> Hi Lena, hi all,
>
> Andrew Collier tries to disambiguate the terms of powers, mechanisms and
> tendencies in his introduction to Bhaskar?s philosophy on the pages
> 61-65. To be honest, I?m not entirely convinced what by gis arguments
> there, but maybe it is a good starting point for analyzing Bhaskar?s
> concept again. On the differentiation between mechanisms and powers, for
> example, Collier writes (p. 62):
>
> "?Power is a non-technical term, designating what something can do.
> ?Generative mechanism?is a technical term, designating a ?real something
> over and above and independent of the patterns of events? (RTS, p.50),
> which normally endures longer than any pattern of events it generates. A
> generative mechanism, we might say, is that aspect of the structure of a
> thing by virtue of which it has a certain power"
>
> Anyhow, both terms still  seem to be interchangable in the definition of
> Collier . I also don?t get the differentiation between a technical and a
> non technical term. In this sense the term of a power seems to be
> redundant and disposable.
>
> best wishes,
> e
>
> Despain, Hans G schrieb:
> > Dear Lena,
> >
> > You are not reading "badly," but quite the reverse you are reading
> carefully and well.
> >
> > Steve Fleetwood presented a paper on this in London, last summer, which
> > I
> thought was quite good. From my memory he concludes not only are there
> ambiguities in the critical realist use of such terms and concepts, but
> some
> deeper problems in the usage and misusage of these terms and concepts.
> >
> > The JCR has a special issue coming out dedicated to these issues,
> > perhaps
> Mervyn could weigh-in here.
> > Also, you may find the entries in the ?Dictionary of Critical Realism?
> useful.
> >
> > Some early critiques of critical realism were aimed at Bhaskar's usage
> > of
> the term "mechanism" in *Realist Theory of Science*, and the ambiguities
> of
> "power" and "tendencies."
> >
> > It seems to me the problem is really not one of epistemology, nor
> necessarily analytical precession.  Rather it is an ontological
> phenomenon.
>  Our perception of reality is limited and our language clumsy and often
> haphazard in its historical development.
> >
> > Plato says affectively, in the Republic (438a ? ff, Book VI, and 532a ?
> ff), ambiguity in the ways we discuss actions (power), opposites
> (liability)
> and motion (tendency) generates Dialectic. In turn, Dialectic for Plato
> seems to be a way to *think* and *talk* about the ontology of both
> relationships (between concepts, between things, between institutions, and
> between people) and change.  In this sense Plato certainly saw the issue
> as
> ontological, with very serious ambiguous, paradoxical, and contradictory
> epistemological implications, which necessitates philosophy and science.
> >
> > In his *Dialectic* Bhaskar is also much more anxious to philosophize
> change and personal action.  Thus the terms power and tendency receive
> significant refinement and the term mechanism is all but abandoned.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Hans
> > ____________________________________
> > From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu [
> critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Lena Gunnarsson
> [lena.gunnarsson at oru.se]
> > Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 12:23 PM
> > To: critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> > Subject: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms
> >
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > I have read quite a lot of critical realist texts by now, but still I
> > can't really figure out what exactly is the difference between powers,
> > tendencies and mechanisms. At any rate, the anaytical distinctions
> > between them don't seem perfectly clear-cut. Is this confusion of mine
> > just a reflection of the ambiguities within the concepts or do I read
> > badly??
> >
> > Best
> > Lena
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Critical-Realism mailing list
> > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
> >
> > The information contained in this e-mail is confidential.  Please do not
> cross-post.  This communication is intended only for the use of the
> addressee(s) and as such is privileged and confidential.  If you are not
> the
> intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, reliance,
> disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication may be
> prohibited
> by law.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify
> the
> sender immediately and delete it and all copies from your system.  Thank
> you.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Critical-Realism mailing list
> > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>



--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Johnson
Institute for Educational Cybernetics
University of Bolton
BL3 5AB
Tel. 01204 903567
Mob. 0778 6064505
_______________________________________________
Critical-Realism mailing list
Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism


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The information contained in this e-mail is confidential.  Please do not cross-post.  This communication is intended only for the use of the addressee(s) and as such is privileged and confidential.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, reliance, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication may be prohibited by law.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it and all copies from your system.  Thank you.


From lena.gunnarsson at oru.se  Tue Mar 10 07:31:41 2009
From: lena.gunnarsson at oru.se (Lena Gunnarsson)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 14:31:41 +0100
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms
In-Reply-To: <CF5E68A7D4B2F7438DDD9199F67F54420DCEF5AED4@mb01.bison.nichols.edu>
References: <49B54278.6080102@oru.se>
	<CF5E68A7D4B2F7438DDD9199F67F54420DCEF5AED3@mb01.bison.nichols.edu>
	<49B61E2D.7090507@gmx.net>
	<d4aa99eb0903100152r40e510b0h1349e51a98ac67d@mail.gmail.com>
	<5820151C8234429B98993F442BF676CC@Presario>
	<CF5E68A7D4B2F7438DDD9199F67F54420DCEF5AED4@mb01.bison.nichols.edu>
Message-ID: <49B66BBD.9070503@oru.se>

Thank you all, that was clarifying!
Hans, you mentioned some early critiques of CR aimed at Bhaskar's usage 
of the term mechanism. Could you please specify that? Where can I read 
this critique?

Best
Lena

Despain, Hans G wrote:
> Dave provides a very nice distinction between powers, tendencies, and mechanisms.
>
> I think this is exactly consistent with Bhaskar's postscript in RTS and Collier's Introduction.
>
> However, it real does only beg the question.  Our we consisent with these distinctions.  Besides, ontologically we run into several problems.
>
> Mark is trying to get at this when he says mechanisms "tell" us things.  This is an important point, but it is us that impose the "telling," mechanisms act through powers and liablities as tendencies.  We often come to know mechanisms only by their effects, i.e. by their powers and tendencies.  Thus, we begin to define generative mechanisms by the *actual* and *empirical* powers, (and as pointed out in your distinctions) more acccurately by manifest tendencies in the domains of the actual and empirical that we are able to identify.  It is through these tendencies in the domains of the acutal and empirical that we can identify powers and liablities of things (e.g. generative mechanisms, which btw is overly mechanial term for my taste).
>
> The problem arises because some generative mechanisms are defined purely in terms of powers, liablities, and tendencies, e.g. gravity (as gestered at by Par in an earlier post).  Thus, if a tendency changes is it another mechanism counteracting, or a power or liability previously unidentified?  By the way, this is a rather serious problem in political economy and the analysis of crisis. Dave in sociology are not the problems also serious.  For example the generative mechanism of racism, or class as a generative mechanism.
>
> At least in part racism and class distinctions are defined by their effects.  But then it is difficult to analytically define them.  If we are overly analytical, e.g. class is a certain occupation or income amount, or racism is hatred based on race, these phenomena as generative mechanisms become stale.
>
> sincerely,
>
> Hans
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu [critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Dave Elder-Vass [d.eldervass at ntlworld.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 5:50 AM
> To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List
> Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms
>
> I would say (and I think this is in the spirit at least of Bhaskar's Realist
> Theory of Science):
>
> (1) a power is the ability of a thing to have a certain type of causal
> effect
>
> (2) powers exist as tendencies - a thing with a certain power has a tendency
> to produce the corresponding effect, but this is only a tendency and not a
> law because (a) such powers may depend on the presence of other powers and
> liabilities to be able to work, e.g. my power to speak depends on the
> presence of air; (b) such powers may be frustrated by the presence of
> counteracting powers, e.g. the power of a dog to run after a ball may be
> frustrated by the presence of a person holding them by a leash.
>
> (3) mechanisms are the processes operating within things that give them
> their powers, e.g. the process of interaction between my brain, lungs,
> windpipe, vocal cords, mouth, etc, that underpins my power to speak
>
> PS: one earlier contributor suggested (I think, from memory) that it is
> difficult to identify mechanisms because events often depend on both
> internal and external factors. I would say that mechanisms are always
> internal processes, but events are produced by the interacting powers of
> different things (Bhaskar calls this co-determination or multiple
> determination) so that there will usually be multiple mechanisms at work in
> the causation of any given event. So, we explain events by identifying the
> powers that interacted to produce them, and we explain powers by identifying
> the mechanisms responsible for them.
>
> No doubt I have left out some important ramifications, but this is often the
> price of clarity. The interesting question, I think, is whether this schema
> is universally valid or whether there are cases of causation in which it
> doesn't work.
>
> I hope this helps,
>
> Dave
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Johnson" <mwj1 at bolton.ac.uk>
> To: "Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List"
> <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
> Sent: 10 March 2009 08:52
> Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms
>
>
> Just one further thought. Instead of asking about the distinction between
> power, mechanism, etc in the form "what is ...", it can useful instead to
> ask "what does a mechanism *do*?", "what does power *do*?", etc. Of course,
> this is a bit like asking "what is the mechanism of mechanism?"... but
> perhaps it's important to realise that's the territory we are in with these
> questions and distinctions.
>
> On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 8:00 AM, echna <echna at gmx.net> wrote:
>
>   
>> Hi Lena, hi all,
>>
>> Andrew Collier tries to disambiguate the terms of powers, mechanisms and
>> tendencies in his introduction to Bhaskar?s philosophy on the pages
>> 61-65. To be honest, I?m not entirely convinced what by gis arguments
>> there, but maybe it is a good starting point for analyzing Bhaskar?s
>> concept again. On the differentiation between mechanisms and powers, for
>> example, Collier writes (p. 62):
>>
>> "?Power is a non-technical term, designating what something can do.
>> ?Generative mechanism?is a technical term, designating a ?real something
>> over and above and independent of the patterns of events? (RTS, p.50),
>> which normally endures longer than any pattern of events it generates. A
>> generative mechanism, we might say, is that aspect of the structure of a
>> thing by virtue of which it has a certain power"
>>
>> Anyhow, both terms still  seem to be interchangable in the definition of
>> Collier . I also don?t get the differentiation between a technical and a
>> non technical term. In this sense the term of a power seems to be
>> redundant and disposable.
>>
>> best wishes,
>> e
>>
>> Despain, Hans G schrieb:
>>     
>>> Dear Lena,
>>>
>>> You are not reading "badly," but quite the reverse you are reading
>>>       
>> carefully and well.
>>     
>>> Steve Fleetwood presented a paper on this in London, last summer, which
>>> I
>>>       
>> thought was quite good. From my memory he concludes not only are there
>> ambiguities in the critical realist use of such terms and concepts, but
>> some
>> deeper problems in the usage and misusage of these terms and concepts.
>>     
>>> The JCR has a special issue coming out dedicated to these issues,
>>> perhaps
>>>       
>> Mervyn could weigh-in here.
>>     
>>> Also, you may find the entries in the ?Dictionary of Critical Realism?
>>>       
>> useful.
>>     
>>> Some early critiques of critical realism were aimed at Bhaskar's usage
>>> of
>>>       
>> the term "mechanism" in *Realist Theory of Science*, and the ambiguities
>> of
>> "power" and "tendencies."
>>     
>>> It seems to me the problem is really not one of epistemology, nor
>>>       
>> necessarily analytical precession.  Rather it is an ontological
>> phenomenon.
>>  Our perception of reality is limited and our language clumsy and often
>> haphazard in its historical development.
>>     
>>> Plato says affectively, in the Republic (438a ? ff, Book VI, and 532a ?
>>>       
>> ff), ambiguity in the ways we discuss actions (power), opposites
>> (liability)
>> and motion (tendency) generates Dialectic. In turn, Dialectic for Plato
>> seems to be a way to *think* and *talk* about the ontology of both
>> relationships (between concepts, between things, between institutions, and
>> between people) and change.  In this sense Plato certainly saw the issue
>> as
>> ontological, with very serious ambiguous, paradoxical, and contradictory
>> epistemological implications, which necessitates philosophy and science.
>>     
>>> In his *Dialectic* Bhaskar is also much more anxious to philosophize
>>>       
>> change and personal action.  Thus the terms power and tendency receive
>> significant refinement and the term mechanism is all but abandoned.
>>     
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Hans
>>> ____________________________________
>>> From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu [
>>>       
>> critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Lena Gunnarsson
>> [lena.gunnarsson at oru.se]
>>     
>>> Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 12:23 PM
>>> To: critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>>> Subject: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms
>>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> I have read quite a lot of critical realist texts by now, but still I
>>> can't really figure out what exactly is the difference between powers,
>>> tendencies and mechanisms. At any rate, the anaytical distinctions
>>> between them don't seem perfectly clear-cut. Is this confusion of mine
>>> just a reflection of the ambiguities within the concepts or do I read
>>> badly??
>>>
>>> Best
>>> Lena
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Critical-Realism mailing list
>>> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>>> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>>>
>>> The information contained in this e-mail is confidential.  Please do not
>>>       
>> cross-post.  This communication is intended only for the use of the
>> addressee(s) and as such is privileged and confidential.  If you are not
>> the
>> intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, reliance,
>> disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication may be
>> prohibited
>> by law.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify
>> the
>> sender immediately and delete it and all copies from your system.  Thank
>> you.
>>     
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Critical-Realism mailing list
>>> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>>> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> Critical-Realism mailing list
>> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>>
>>     
>
>
>
> --
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Mark Johnson
> Institute for Educational Cybernetics
> University of Bolton
> BL3 5AB
> Tel. 01204 903567
> Mob. 0778 6064505
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>
> The information contained in this e-mail is confidential.  Please do not cross-post.  This communication is intended only for the use of the addressee(s) and as such is privileged and confidential.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, reliance, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication may be prohibited by law.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it and all copies from your system.  Thank you.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>   

From Par.Engholm at soc.uu.se  Tue Mar 10 09:07:02 2009
From: Par.Engholm at soc.uu.se (Par Engholm)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 16:07:02 +0100
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms
In-Reply-To: <49B66BBD.9070503@oru.se>
References: <49B54278.6080102@oru.se><CF5E68A7D4B2F7438DDD9199F67F54420DCEF5AED3@mb01.bison.nichols.edu><49B61E2D.7090507@gmx.net><d4aa99eb0903100152r40e510b0h1349e51a98ac67d@mail.gmail.com><5820151C8234429B98993F442BF676CC@Presario><CF5E68A7D4B2F7438DDD9199F67F54420DCEF5AED4@mb01.bison.nichols.edu>
	<49B66BBD.9070503@oru.se>
Message-ID: <F08742DBD69D41B583CEA93C61715C9C@uppsala0b464dd>

Hello,
I think you can find some quite interesting discussion in this book:
Carchedi, Guglielmo (1983) Problems in Class Analysis. Production,
Knowledge, and the Function of Capital, London: Routledge & Kegan Paul

Cheers,
P?r


*******************************************************
Par Engholm
Uppsala University
Department of Sociology
http://www.soc.uu.se/kontaktpers.php?id=62
Mobile: +46 709783546
 
Journal of Critical Realism
http://www.equinoxjournals.com/ojs/index.php/JCR/index


-----Original Message-----
From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu
[mailto:critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Lena
Gunnarsson
Sent: 10 March 2009 14:32
To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List
Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms

Thank you all, that was clarifying!
Hans, you mentioned some early critiques of CR aimed at Bhaskar's usage 
of the term mechanism. Could you please specify that? Where can I read 
this critique?

Best
Lena

Despain, Hans G wrote:
> Dave provides a very nice distinction between powers, tendencies, and
mechanisms.
>
> I think this is exactly consistent with Bhaskar's postscript in RTS and
Collier's Introduction.
>
> However, it real does only beg the question.  Our we consisent with these
distinctions.  Besides, ontologically we run into several problems.
>
> Mark is trying to get at this when he says mechanisms "tell" us things.
This is an important point, but it is us that impose the "telling,"
mechanisms act through powers and liablities as tendencies.  We often come
to know mechanisms only by their effects, i.e. by their powers and
tendencies.  Thus, we begin to define generative mechanisms by the *actual*
and *empirical* powers, (and as pointed out in your distinctions) more
acccurately by manifest tendencies in the domains of the actual and
empirical that we are able to identify.  It is through these tendencies in
the domains of the acutal and empirical that we can identify powers and
liablities of things (e.g. generative mechanisms, which btw is overly
mechanial term for my taste).
>
> The problem arises because some generative mechanisms are defined purely
in terms of powers, liablities, and tendencies, e.g. gravity (as gestered at
by Par in an earlier post).  Thus, if a tendency changes is it another
mechanism counteracting, or a power or liability previously unidentified?
By the way, this is a rather serious problem in political economy and the
analysis of crisis. Dave in sociology are not the problems also serious.
For example the generative mechanism of racism, or class as a generative
mechanism.
>
> At least in part racism and class distinctions are defined by their
effects.  But then it is difficult to analytically define them.  If we are
overly analytical, e.g. class is a certain occupation or income amount, or
racism is hatred based on race, these phenomena as generative mechanisms
become stale.
>
> sincerely,
>
> Hans
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu
[critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Dave Elder-Vass
[d.eldervass at ntlworld.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 5:50 AM
> To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List
> Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms
>
> I would say (and I think this is in the spirit at least of Bhaskar's
Realist
> Theory of Science):
>
> (1) a power is the ability of a thing to have a certain type of causal
> effect
>
> (2) powers exist as tendencies - a thing with a certain power has a
tendency
> to produce the corresponding effect, but this is only a tendency and not a
> law because (a) such powers may depend on the presence of other powers and
> liabilities to be able to work, e.g. my power to speak depends on the
> presence of air; (b) such powers may be frustrated by the presence of
> counteracting powers, e.g. the power of a dog to run after a ball may be
> frustrated by the presence of a person holding them by a leash.
>
> (3) mechanisms are the processes operating within things that give them
> their powers, e.g. the process of interaction between my brain, lungs,
> windpipe, vocal cords, mouth, etc, that underpins my power to speak
>
> PS: one earlier contributor suggested (I think, from memory) that it is
> difficult to identify mechanisms because events often depend on both
> internal and external factors. I would say that mechanisms are always
> internal processes, but events are produced by the interacting powers of
> different things (Bhaskar calls this co-determination or multiple
> determination) so that there will usually be multiple mechanisms at work
in
> the causation of any given event. So, we explain events by identifying the
> powers that interacted to produce them, and we explain powers by
identifying
> the mechanisms responsible for them.
>
> No doubt I have left out some important ramifications, but this is often
the
> price of clarity. The interesting question, I think, is whether this
schema
> is universally valid or whether there are cases of causation in which it
> doesn't work.
>
> I hope this helps,
>
> Dave
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Johnson" <mwj1 at bolton.ac.uk>
> To: "Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List"
> <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
> Sent: 10 March 2009 08:52
> Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms
>
>
> Just one further thought. Instead of asking about the distinction between
> power, mechanism, etc in the form "what is ...", it can useful instead to
> ask "what does a mechanism *do*?", "what does power *do*?", etc. Of
course,
> this is a bit like asking "what is the mechanism of mechanism?"... but
> perhaps it's important to realise that's the territory we are in with
these
> questions and distinctions.
>
> On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 8:00 AM, echna <echna at gmx.net> wrote:
>
>   
>> Hi Lena, hi all,
>>
>> Andrew Collier tries to disambiguate the terms of powers, mechanisms and
>> tendencies in his introduction to Bhaskar?s philosophy on the pages
>> 61-65. To be honest, I?m not entirely convinced what by gis arguments
>> there, but maybe it is a good starting point for analyzing Bhaskar?s
>> concept again. On the differentiation between mechanisms and powers, for
>> example, Collier writes (p. 62):
>>
>> "?Power is a non-technical term, designating what something can do.
>> ?Generative mechanism?is a technical term, designating a ?real something
>> over and above and independent of the patterns of events? (RTS, p.50),
>> which normally endures longer than any pattern of events it generates. A
>> generative mechanism, we might say, is that aspect of the structure of a
>> thing by virtue of which it has a certain power"
>>
>> Anyhow, both terms still  seem to be interchangable in the definition of
>> Collier . I also don?t get the differentiation between a technical and a
>> non technical term. In this sense the term of a power seems to be
>> redundant and disposable.
>>
>> best wishes,
>> e
>>
>> Despain, Hans G schrieb:
>>     
>>> Dear Lena,
>>>
>>> You are not reading "badly," but quite the reverse you are reading
>>>       
>> carefully and well.
>>     
>>> Steve Fleetwood presented a paper on this in London, last summer, which
>>> I
>>>       
>> thought was quite good. From my memory he concludes not only are there
>> ambiguities in the critical realist use of such terms and concepts, but
>> some
>> deeper problems in the usage and misusage of these terms and concepts.
>>     
>>> The JCR has a special issue coming out dedicated to these issues,
>>> perhaps
>>>       
>> Mervyn could weigh-in here.
>>     
>>> Also, you may find the entries in the ?Dictionary of Critical Realism?
>>>       
>> useful.
>>     
>>> Some early critiques of critical realism were aimed at Bhaskar's usage
>>> of
>>>       
>> the term "mechanism" in *Realist Theory of Science*, and the ambiguities
>> of
>> "power" and "tendencies."
>>     
>>> It seems to me the problem is really not one of epistemology, nor
>>>       
>> necessarily analytical precession.  Rather it is an ontological
>> phenomenon.
>>  Our perception of reality is limited and our language clumsy and often
>> haphazard in its historical development.
>>     
>>> Plato says affectively, in the Republic (438a ? ff, Book VI, and 532a ?
>>>       
>> ff), ambiguity in the ways we discuss actions (power), opposites
>> (liability)
>> and motion (tendency) generates Dialectic. In turn, Dialectic for Plato
>> seems to be a way to *think* and *talk* about the ontology of both
>> relationships (between concepts, between things, between institutions,
and
>> between people) and change.  In this sense Plato certainly saw the issue
>> as
>> ontological, with very serious ambiguous, paradoxical, and contradictory
>> epistemological implications, which necessitates philosophy and science.
>>     
>>> In his *Dialectic* Bhaskar is also much more anxious to philosophize
>>>       
>> change and personal action.  Thus the terms power and tendency receive
>> significant refinement and the term mechanism is all but abandoned.
>>     
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Hans
>>> ____________________________________
>>> From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu [
>>>       
>> critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Lena
Gunnarsson
>> [lena.gunnarsson at oru.se]
>>     
>>> Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 12:23 PM
>>> To: critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>>> Subject: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms
>>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> I have read quite a lot of critical realist texts by now, but still I
>>> can't really figure out what exactly is the difference between powers,
>>> tendencies and mechanisms. At any rate, the anaytical distinctions
>>> between them don't seem perfectly clear-cut. Is this confusion of mine
>>> just a reflection of the ambiguities within the concepts or do I read
>>> badly??
>>>
>>> Best
>>> Lena
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Critical-Realism mailing list
>>> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>>> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>>>
>>> The information contained in this e-mail is confidential.  Please do not
>>>       
>> cross-post.  This communication is intended only for the use of the
>> addressee(s) and as such is privileged and confidential.  If you are not
>> the
>> intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, reliance,
>> disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication may be
>> prohibited
>> by law.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify
>> the
>> sender immediately and delete it and all copies from your system.  Thank
>> you.
>>     
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Critical-Realism mailing list
>>> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>>> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> Critical-Realism mailing list
>> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>>
>>     
>
>
>
> --
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
> Mark Johnson
> Institute for Educational Cybernetics
> University of Bolton
> BL3 5AB
> Tel. 01204 903567
> Mob. 0778 6064505
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>
> The information contained in this e-mail is confidential.  Please do not
cross-post.  This communication is intended only for the use of the
addressee(s) and as such is privileged and confidential.  If you are not the
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, reliance,
disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication may be prohibited
by law.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify the
sender immediately and delete it and all copies from your system.  Thank
you.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>   
_______________________________________________
Critical-Realism mailing list
Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism



From louisirwin9 at aol.com  Tue Mar 10 16:34:31 2009
From: louisirwin9 at aol.com (Louis Irwin)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:34:31 -0400
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms
In-Reply-To: <5820151C8234429B98993F442BF676CC@Presario>
Message-ID: <d5f.45a83228.36e843de@aol.com>

I think Dave's distinctions need some refinement regarding the relation of
tendencies to powers as described in his (2). For example, a person normally
has the power to assault someone yet can lack the tendency to do so.
Moreover the lack of such a tendency is not necessarily due to the presence
of countervailing items, as if we were assaulters by natural default (if
nothing else, that would raise the question why we are not instead presumed
to be non-assaulters by nature.

Louis Irwin 

-----Original Message-----
From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu
[mailto:critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Dave
Elder-Vass
Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 5:51 AM
To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List
Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms

I would say (and I think this is in the spirit at least of Bhaskar's Realist
Theory of Science):

(1) a power is the ability of a thing to have a certain type of causal
effect

(2) powers exist as tendencies - a thing with a certain power has a tendency
to produce the corresponding effect, but this is only a tendency and not a
law because (a) such powers may depend on the presence of other powers and
liabilities to be able to work, e.g. my power to speak depends on the
presence of air; (b) such powers may be frustrated by the presence of
counteracting powers, e.g. the power of a dog to run after a ball may be
frustrated by the presence of a person holding them by a leash.

(3) mechanisms are the processes operating within things that give them
their powers, e.g. the process of interaction between my brain, lungs,
windpipe, vocal cords, mouth, etc, that underpins my power to speak

PS: one earlier contributor suggested (I think, from memory) that it is
difficult to identify mechanisms because events often depend on both
internal and external factors. I would say that mechanisms are always
internal processes, but events are produced by the interacting powers of
different things (Bhaskar calls this co-determination or multiple
determination) so that there will usually be multiple mechanisms at work in
the causation of any given event. So, we explain events by identifying the
powers that interacted to produce them, and we explain powers by identifying
the mechanisms responsible for them.

No doubt I have left out some important ramifications, but this is often the
price of clarity. The interesting question, I think, is whether this schema
is universally valid or whether there are cases of causation in which it
doesn't work.

I hope this helps,

Dave

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Johnson" <mwj1 at bolton.ac.uk>
To: "Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List" 
<critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
Sent: 10 March 2009 08:52
Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms


Just one further thought. Instead of asking about the distinction between
power, mechanism, etc in the form "what is ...", it can useful instead to
ask "what does a mechanism *do*?", "what does power *do*?", etc. Of course,
this is a bit like asking "what is the mechanism of mechanism?"... but
perhaps it's important to realise that's the territory we are in with these
questions and distinctions.

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 8:00 AM, echna <echna at gmx.net> wrote:

> Hi Lena, hi all,
>
> Andrew Collier tries to disambiguate the terms of powers, mechanisms and
> tendencies in his introduction to Bhaskar?s philosophy on the pages
> 61-65. To be honest, I?m not entirely convinced what by gis arguments
> there, but maybe it is a good starting point for analyzing Bhaskar?s
> concept again. On the differentiation between mechanisms and powers, for
> example, Collier writes (p. 62):
>
> "?Power is a non-technical term, designating what something can do.
> ?Generative mechanism?is a technical term, designating a ?real something
> over and above and independent of the patterns of events? (RTS, p.50),
> which normally endures longer than any pattern of events it generates. A
> generative mechanism, we might say, is that aspect of the structure of a
> thing by virtue of which it has a certain power"
>
> Anyhow, both terms still  seem to be interchangable in the definition of
> Collier . I also don?t get the differentiation between a technical and a
> non technical term. In this sense the term of a power seems to be
> redundant and disposable.
>
> best wishes,
> e
>
> Despain, Hans G schrieb:
> > Dear Lena,
> >
> > You are not reading "badly," but quite the reverse you are reading
> carefully and well.
> >
> > Steve Fleetwood presented a paper on this in London, last summer, which 
> > I
> thought was quite good. From my memory he concludes not only are there
> ambiguities in the critical realist use of such terms and concepts, but 
> some
> deeper problems in the usage and misusage of these terms and concepts.
> >
> > The JCR has a special issue coming out dedicated to these issues, 
> > perhaps
> Mervyn could weigh-in here.
> > Also, you may find the entries in the ?Dictionary of Critical Realism?
> useful.
> >
> > Some early critiques of critical realism were aimed at Bhaskar's usage 
> > of
> the term "mechanism" in *Realist Theory of Science*, and the ambiguities 
> of
> "power" and "tendencies."
> >
> > It seems to me the problem is really not one of epistemology, nor
> necessarily analytical precession.  Rather it is an ontological 
> phenomenon.
>  Our perception of reality is limited and our language clumsy and often
> haphazard in its historical development.
> >
> > Plato says affectively, in the Republic (438a ? ff, Book VI, and 532a ?
> ff), ambiguity in the ways we discuss actions (power), opposites 
> (liability)
> and motion (tendency) generates Dialectic. In turn, Dialectic for Plato
> seems to be a way to *think* and *talk* about the ontology of both
> relationships (between concepts, between things, between institutions, and
> between people) and change.  In this sense Plato certainly saw the issue 
> as
> ontological, with very serious ambiguous, paradoxical, and contradictory
> epistemological implications, which necessitates philosophy and science.
> >
> > In his *Dialectic* Bhaskar is also much more anxious to philosophize
> change and personal action.  Thus the terms power and tendency receive
> significant refinement and the term mechanism is all but abandoned.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Hans
> > ____________________________________
> > From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu [
> critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Lena Gunnarsson
> [lena.gunnarsson at oru.se]
> > Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 12:23 PM
> > To: critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> > Subject: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms
> >
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > I have read quite a lot of critical realist texts by now, but still I
> > can't really figure out what exactly is the difference between powers,
> > tendencies and mechanisms. At any rate, the anaytical distinctions
> > between them don't seem perfectly clear-cut. Is this confusion of mine
> > just a reflection of the ambiguities within the concepts or do I read
> > badly??
> >
> > Best
> > Lena
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Critical-Realism mailing list
> > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
> >
> > The information contained in this e-mail is confidential.  Please do not
> cross-post.  This communication is intended only for the use of the
> addressee(s) and as such is privileged and confidential.  If you are not 
> the
> intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, reliance,
> disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication may be 
> prohibited
> by law.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify 
> the
> sender immediately and delete it and all copies from your system.  Thank
> you.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Critical-Realism mailing list
> > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>



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BL3 5AB
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From alex.clark at ualberta.ca  Tue Mar 10 16:33:25 2009
From: alex.clark at ualberta.ca (Alex Clark)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 16:33:25 -0600
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Powers, tendencies and mechanisms
In-Reply-To: <d5f.45a83228.36e843de@aol.com>
References: <5820151C8234429B98993F442BF676CC@Presario>
	<d5f.45a83228.36e843de@aol.com>
Message-ID: <D6AAFFC90CB00C45840F39D6897ED909016F29B5@nsg19.nurs.ualberta.ca>

There might also be some worth in Tony Lawson's writing around demi-regs
(or demi-regularities) in relation to tendencies.

A

************************************************************************
'
Alexander M Clark          PhD BA(Hons) RN
Associate Professor 
Alberta Heritage Population Health Investigator
CIHR New Investigator

Faculty of Nursing
4th Floor Clinical Sciences Building
University of Alberta
Edmonton, AB.
Canada 
T6G 2G3
 
Tel: 001 (780) 492 8347
Fax: 001 (780) 492 2551



From janesperry at hotmail.co.uk  Wed Mar 11 03:51:45 2009
From: janesperry at hotmail.co.uk (Jane Sperry)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 09:51:45 +0000
Subject: [Critical-Realism] (no subject)
Message-ID: <BAY136-W35F95EF81E8AF812A2A1618D9E0@phx.gbl>



 

I am pleased that Alexander mentions Tony Lawson. His work on demi regs is best in Reorienting Economics. But see also  Lawson's Economics and Reality, on powers, tendencies, mechanisms, etc, especially pages 21 -25.  I believe elsewhere he has contributed dictionary entiries on these topics. I am slightly surprised  that Lawson's work (and that of his group) is not discussed more on this list.  Is it because he is an perceived to be an economist?  He really is more than that

J     

 

 

There might also be some worth in Tony Lawson's writing around demi-regs

(or demi-regularities) in relation to tendencies.

A

************************************************************************ '

Alexander M Clark PhD BA(Hons) RN Associate Professor Alberta

Heritage Population Health Investigator CIHR New Investigator

Faculty of Nursing

4th Floor Clinical Sciences Building

University of Alberta

Edmonton, AB.

Canada 

T6G 2G3

Tel: 001 (780) 492 8347

Fax: 001 (780) 492 2551

 

_______________________________________________

Critical-Realism mailing list

Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu

http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism

_________________________________________________________________
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From Hans.Despain at nichols.edu  Wed Mar 11 16:31:40 2009
From: Hans.Despain at nichols.edu (Despain, Hans G)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 18:31:40 -0400
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Lawson
Message-ID: <CF5E68A7D4B2F7438DDD9199F67F54420DCEF5AEE8@mb01.bison.nichols.edu>

Dear Jane,

I believe if you were to check the archive, Tony Lawson's work has been discussed in some detail in the past.

His new book *Ontology and Economics* should generate renewed interest.

Lawson draws heavily from Bhaskar.  And in *Economic and Reality* calls for a new ontology, but provides us with a rather uneasy marriage between Bhaskar and Giddens, as a type of forward shift.  Demi-regs and his chapter on *abstraction* are important contributions to critical realism.

His *Reorienting Economics* makes some important contributions towards applying critical realism, but on  grounds well covered by other critical realists.  But of course applying this to a critique of economics is urgent and important.  The book is very successful to point out the ontological differences between orthodox economics and heterodox political economy.  And whereas he sort of hung his hat on Post-Keynesianism early on, he is more successful to extend a welcome towards the methodological differences and theoretical contributions of Feminism, Institutionalism, evolutionary and behavioralist economists.  To me this is the most important difference between the two books. However, I am not sure he has successfully demonstrated how to push forward an ontological shift (say in the same way that Bhaskar provides an immanent critique of positivism in philosophy, and then a metacritique1 and metacritique2).

There is a new opportunity with the current economic crisis to push forward with the importance of ontology.  But it cannot simply stay on the grounds of philosophical differences (although these points are most important).  We must now reassert an indisputable immanent critique with an ontology capable of avoiding the pitfalls of neoclassical individualism and Keynesian structuralism.  It seems to me we must draw heavily from the ontology of the traditions established, i.e. especially Feminism and Institutionalism, and the tradition currently making the most headway within the mainstream, i.e. behavioralist economists.

Hans

PS.  My colleague Eric Olsen and myself are organizing panels on critical realism at the Rethinking Marxism conference this fall (2009), at University of Massachusetts, Amherst, USA.  One panel will be on Tony Lawson's work.  I will be making a more formal announcement on the list.  However, if you are interested in participating please contact me off list: hans.despain at nichols.edu


From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu [critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of Jane Sperry [janesperry at hotmail.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 5:51 AM
To: critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
Subject: [Critical-Realism] (no subject)

I am pleased that Alexander mentions Tony Lawson. His work on demi regs is best in Reorienting Economics. But see also  Lawson's Economics and Reality, on powers, tendencies, mechanisms, etc, especially pages 21 -25.  I believe elsewhere he has contributed dictionary entiries on these topics. I am slightly surprised  that Lawson's work (and that of his group) is not discussed more on this list.  Is it because he is an perceived to be an economist?  He really is more than that

J





There might also be some worth in Tony Lawson's writing around demi-regs

(or demi-regularities) in relation to tendencies.

A

************************************************************************ '

Alexander M Clark PhD BA(Hons) RN Associate Professor Alberta

Heritage Population Health Investigator CIHR New Investigator

Faculty of Nursing

4th Floor Clinical Sciences Building

University of Alberta

Edmonton, AB.

Canada

T6G 2G3

Tel: 001 (780) 492 8347

Fax: 001 (780) 492 2551



_______________________________________________

Critical-Realism mailing list

Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu

http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism

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http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/137984870/direct/01/
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The information contained in this e-mail is confidential.  Please do not cross-post.  This communication is intended only for the use of the addressee(s) and as such is privileged and confidential.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, reliance, disclosure, distribution or copying of this communication may be prohibited by law.  If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it and all copies from your system.  Thank you.


From DPilgrim at uclan.ac.uk  Thu Mar 12 04:40:38 2009
From: DPilgrim at uclan.ac.uk (David Pilgrim)
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 10:40:38 +0000
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 6
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1236794402.1791.critical-realism@lists.econ.utah.edu>
References: <mailman.1.1236794402.1791.critical-realism@lists.econ.utah.edu>
Message-ID: <49B8E6A6.025F.00EB.0@uclan.ac.uk>

** Reply Requested When Convenient **

I agree with Dr Irwin's points and they raise another distinction related to human agency. If the latter is an emergent quality of our species, especially linked to the greater ability than others to rehearse the future cognitively and on the consequences of our actions, then the notion of tendency has to also include the varying tendency across people and over time to be reflective/reflexive. My cat (crudely) reflects on the situation he finds himself in (don't believe those who say its all about S-R psychology!) but his awareness is far less than mine (till I dement or die). Thus do we need to recognise in humans reflexivity as a sort of meta-tendency to direct of constrain the other tendencies we share with other species and the rest of the material world? Dave Pilgrim
 
David Pilgrim
Professor of Mental Health Policy
 
Department of Social Work
Faculty of Health
University of Central Lancashire
Preston
PR1 2HE
 
Tel +44 (0)1772 893458
Fax +44 (0)1772 892974
Email DPilgrim at uclan.ac.uk

From echna at gmx.net  Thu Mar 12 11:40:42 2009
From: echna at gmx.net (echna)
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 18:40:42 +0100
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Scientific Realism and Socialist Thought
Message-ID: <49B9491A.2030202@gmx.net>

Hi folks,

I?m searching for Andrew Collier?s book "Scientific Realism and 
Socialist Thought", but it seems that it is out of print. I also tried 
to find it through several useful sites like

www.bookfinder.com. Anyhow, I couldn?t get hold of it anywhere. Does anybody have a clue where I can still get a copy from?

best wishes,
e



From rgroff at slu.edu  Thu Mar 12 12:27:06 2009
From: rgroff at slu.edu (Ruth Groff)
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 13:27:06 -0500
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Scientific Realism and Socialist Thought
In-Reply-To: <49B9491A.2030202@gmx.net>
References: <49B9491A.2030202@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <6ad241360903121127n45c8cd40p980ba02a1d2fbcce@mail.gmail.com>

If you can't buy it anywhere, you might want to look into getting it through
inter-library loan, if you have access to an academic library.  If you can
get it that way and no other, you might at least be able to photocopy
relevant parts.



On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 12:40 PM, echna <echna at gmx.net> wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> I?m searching for Andrew Collier?s book "Scientific Realism and
> Socialist Thought", but it seems that it is out of print. I also tried
> to find it through several useful sites like
>
> www.bookfinder.com. Anyhow, I couldn?t get hold of it anywhere. Does
> anybody have a clue where I can still get a copy from?
>
> best wishes,
> e
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>

From mh at jaspere7.demon.co.uk  Thu Mar 12 13:11:46 2009
From: mh at jaspere7.demon.co.uk (Mervyn Hartwig)
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 19:11:46 -0000
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Scientific Realism and Socialist Thought
In-Reply-To: <49B9491A.2030202@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <mailman.446.1236885112.2553.critical-realism@lists.econ.utah.edu>

Andrew Collier has now asked Verso either to reprint or to revert the
copyright to him so that it can appear in the Routledge series. Of course,
this might take some time. 


-----Original Message-----
From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu
[mailto:critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of echna
Sent: 12 March 2009 17:41
To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Scientific Realism and Socialist Thought

Hi folks,

I?m searching for Andrew Collier?s book "Scientific Realism and Socialist
Thought", but it seems that it is out of print. I also tried to find it
through several useful sites like

www.bookfinder.com. Anyhow, I couldn?t get hold of it anywhere. Does anybody
have a clue where I can still get a copy from?

best wishes,
e


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From mh at jaspere7.demon.co.uk  Sat Mar 14 12:54:01 2009
From: mh at jaspere7.demon.co.uk (Mervyn Hartwig)
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:54:01 -0000
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN INTRODUCTION
Message-ID: <mailman.0.1237056844.27696.critical-realism@lists.econ.utah.edu>


The latest and hopefully final news re Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
INTRODUCTION is that Verso are reprinting; it should be available in about a
month.




From rgroff at slu.edu  Sat Mar 14 13:27:36 2009
From: rgroff at slu.edu (Ruth Groff)
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 14:27:36 -0500
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN INTRODUCTION
In-Reply-To: <7alt5i$3qchhm@ipo3smtp.cc.utah.edu>
References: <7alt5i$3qchhm@ipo3smtp.cc.utah.edu>
Message-ID: <6ad241360903141227w4d70dae0h3a48e2db2e14a160@mail.gmail.com>

Yay!  Thanks for this update Mervyn.



On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 1:54 PM, Mervyn Hartwig <mh at jaspere7.demon.co.uk>wrote:

>
> The latest and hopefully final news re Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
> INTRODUCTION is that Verso are reprinting; it should be available in about
> a
> month.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>

From pohanlon03 at qub.ac.uk  Sun Mar 15 16:13:05 2009
From: pohanlon03 at qub.ac.uk (Philip Anthony O'Hanlon)
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 22:13:05 +0000
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1237140003.2818.critical-realism@lists.econ.utah.edu>
References: <mailman.1.1237140003.2818.critical-realism@lists.econ.utah.edu>
Message-ID: <B1ED0DE51AC98D41BCF43145295D40B277C2E920A6@EX2K7-VIRT-3.ads.qub.ac.uk>

Hi all

I was lucky enough to see Alasdair MacIntyre's ("On Having Survived the Academic Moral Philosophies of the 20th Century") lecture at UCD last weekend.  For those of you may be interested there is a video link to it here: http://www.ucd.ie/news/2009/03FEB09/110309_macintyre.html

Phil


________________________________________
From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu [critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu [critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu]
Sent: 15 March 2009 18:00
To: critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
Subject: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9

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Today's Topics:

   1. Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN INTRODUCTION (Mervyn Hartwig)
   2. Re: Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN INTRODUCTION (Ruth Groff)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:54:01 -0000
From: "Mervyn Hartwig" <mh at jaspere7.demon.co.uk>
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
        INTRODUCTION
To: "'Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List'"
        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
Message-ID:
        <mailman.2.1237140003.2818.critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"


The latest and hopefully final news re Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
INTRODUCTION is that Verso are reprinting; it should be available in about a
month.





------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 14:27:36 -0500
From: Ruth Groff <rgroff at slu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
        INTRODUCTION
To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List
        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
Message-ID:
        <6ad241360903141227w4d70dae0h3a48e2db2e14a160 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Yay!  Thanks for this update Mervyn.



On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 1:54 PM, Mervyn Hartwig <mh at jaspere7.demon.co.uk>wrote:

>
> The latest and hopefully final news re Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
> INTRODUCTION is that Verso are reprinting; it should be available in about
> a
> month.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>


------------------------------

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End of Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9
***********************************************

From rgroff at slu.edu  Sun Mar 15 16:27:33 2009
From: rgroff at slu.edu (Ruth Groff)
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 17:27:33 -0500
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9
In-Reply-To: <B1ED0DE51AC98D41BCF43145295D40B277C2E920A6@EX2K7-VIRT-3.ads.qub.ac.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1237140003.2818.critical-realism@lists.econ.utah.edu>
	<B1ED0DE51AC98D41BCF43145295D40B277C2E920A6@EX2K7-VIRT-3.ads.qub.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <6ad241360903151527n14b0afdbl21659530ed4b88ba@mail.gmail.com>

Phil you're my hero!  I'm in the throes of writing a piece on him.  Death
throes.  But that's not his fault; he's brilliant.

Ruth

On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 5:13 PM, Philip Anthony O'Hanlon <
pohanlon03 at qub.ac.uk> wrote:

> Hi all
>
> I was lucky enough to see Alasdair MacIntyre's ("On Having Survived the
> Academic Moral Philosophies of the 20th Century") lecture at UCD last
> weekend.  For those of you may be interested there is a video link to it
> here: http://www.ucd.ie/news/2009/03FEB09/110309_macintyre.html
>
> Phil
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu [
> critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of
> critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu [
> critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu]
> Sent: 15 March 2009 18:00
> To: critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> Subject: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9
>
> Send Critical-Realism mailing list submissions to
>        critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>        http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>        critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>        critical-realism-owner at lists.econ.utah.edu
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Critical-Realism digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN INTRODUCTION (Mervyn Hartwig)
>   2. Re: Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN INTRODUCTION (Ruth Groff)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:54:01 -0000
> From: "Mervyn Hartwig" <mh at jaspere7.demon.co.uk>
> Subject: [Critical-Realism] Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
>        INTRODUCTION
> To: "'Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List'"
>        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
> Message-ID:
>        <mailman.2.1237140003.2818.critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> The latest and hopefully final news re Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
> INTRODUCTION is that Verso are reprinting; it should be available in about
> a
> month.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 14:27:36 -0500
> From: Ruth Groff <rgroff at slu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
>        INTRODUCTION
> To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List
>        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
> Message-ID:
>        <6ad241360903141227w4d70dae0h3a48e2db2e14a160 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Yay!  Thanks for this update Mervyn.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 1:54 PM, Mervyn Hartwig <mh at jaspere7.demon.co.uk
> >wrote:
>
> >
> > The latest and hopefully final news re Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
> > INTRODUCTION is that Verso are reprinting; it should be available in
> about
> > a
> > month.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Critical-Realism mailing list
> > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>
>
> End of Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9
> ***********************************************
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>

From limhockey at onthenet.com.au  Sun Mar 15 19:47:36 2009
From: limhockey at onthenet.com.au (Hockeys)
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 11:47:36 +1000
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Critiquing Sachs' End of Poverty
Message-ID: <35EF938271AD469884915FCB1149C398@hockey>

Hi all

I've been searching without success so far, for critical realist critiques of Jeffrey Sachs' 2005 "The End of Poverty" (or of Sachs' work in general).

Could anyone point me in a helpful direction?

Neil

From pohanlon03 at qub.ac.uk  Mon Mar 16 17:45:10 2009
From: pohanlon03 at qub.ac.uk (Philip Anthony O'Hanlon)
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 23:45:10 +0000
Subject: [Critical-Realism] MacIntyre
Message-ID: <B1ED0DE51AC98D41BCF43145295D40B277C2E920A9@EX2K7-VIRT-3.ads.qub.ac.uk>

Hi Ruth, 

no problem!    I was very impressed with MacIntyre - 80 years old and sharp as a needle.  What are you writing on MacIntyre and how will it relate to CR?


phil

________________________________________
From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu [critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu [critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu]
Sent: 16 March 2009 18:00
To: critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
Subject: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 10

Send Critical-Realism mailing list submissions to
        critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9
      (Philip Anthony O'Hanlon)
   2. Re: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9 (Ruth Groff)
   3. Critiquing Sachs' End of Poverty (Hockeys)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 22:13:05 +0000
From: Philip Anthony O'Hanlon <pohanlon03 at qub.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue
        9
To: "critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu"
        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
Message-ID:
        <B1ED0DE51AC98D41BCF43145295D40B277C2E920A6 at EX2K7-VIRT-3.ads.qub.ac.uk>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi all

I was lucky enough to see Alasdair MacIntyre's ("On Having Survived the Academic Moral Philosophies of the 20th Century") lecture at UCD last weekend.  For those of you may be interested there is a video link to it here: http://www.ucd.ie/news/2009/03FEB09/110309_macintyre.html

Phil


________________________________________
From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu [critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu [critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu]
Sent: 15 March 2009 18:00
To: critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
Subject: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9

Send Critical-Realism mailing list submissions to
        critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
        http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
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You can reach the person managing the list at
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Critical-Realism digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN INTRODUCTION (Mervyn Hartwig)
   2. Re: Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN INTRODUCTION (Ruth Groff)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:54:01 -0000
From: "Mervyn Hartwig" <mh at jaspere7.demon.co.uk>
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
        INTRODUCTION
To: "'Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List'"
        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
Message-ID:
        <mailman.2.1237140003.2818.critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"


The latest and hopefully final news re Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
INTRODUCTION is that Verso are reprinting; it should be available in about a
month.





------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 14:27:36 -0500
From: Ruth Groff <rgroff at slu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
        INTRODUCTION
To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List
        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
Message-ID:
        <6ad241360903141227w4d70dae0h3a48e2db2e14a160 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Yay!  Thanks for this update Mervyn.



On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 1:54 PM, Mervyn Hartwig <mh at jaspere7.demon.co.uk>wrote:

>
> The latest and hopefully final news re Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
> INTRODUCTION is that Verso are reprinting; it should be available in about
> a
> month.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>


------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Critical-Realism mailing list
Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism


End of Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9
***********************************************


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 17:27:33 -0500
From: Ruth Groff <rgroff at slu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue
        9
To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List
        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
Message-ID:
        <6ad241360903151527n14b0afdbl21659530ed4b88ba at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Phil you're my hero!  I'm in the throes of writing a piece on him.  Death
throes.  But that's not his fault; he's brilliant.

Ruth

On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 5:13 PM, Philip Anthony O'Hanlon <
pohanlon03 at qub.ac.uk> wrote:

> Hi all
>
> I was lucky enough to see Alasdair MacIntyre's ("On Having Survived the
> Academic Moral Philosophies of the 20th Century") lecture at UCD last
> weekend.  For those of you may be interested there is a video link to it
> here: http://www.ucd.ie/news/2009/03FEB09/110309_macintyre.html
>
> Phil
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu [
> critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of
> critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu [
> critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu]
> Sent: 15 March 2009 18:00
> To: critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> Subject: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9
>
> Send Critical-Realism mailing list submissions to
>        critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>        http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>        critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>        critical-realism-owner at lists.econ.utah.edu
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Critical-Realism digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN INTRODUCTION (Mervyn Hartwig)
>   2. Re: Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN INTRODUCTION (Ruth Groff)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:54:01 -0000
> From: "Mervyn Hartwig" <mh at jaspere7.demon.co.uk>
> Subject: [Critical-Realism] Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
>        INTRODUCTION
> To: "'Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List'"
>        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
> Message-ID:
>        <mailman.2.1237140003.2818.critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> The latest and hopefully final news re Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
> INTRODUCTION is that Verso are reprinting; it should be available in about
> a
> month.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 14:27:36 -0500
> From: Ruth Groff <rgroff at slu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
>        INTRODUCTION
> To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List
>        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
> Message-ID:
>        <6ad241360903141227w4d70dae0h3a48e2db2e14a160 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Yay!  Thanks for this update Mervyn.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 1:54 PM, Mervyn Hartwig <mh at jaspere7.demon.co.uk
> >wrote:
>
> >
> > The latest and hopefully final news re Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
> > INTRODUCTION is that Verso are reprinting; it should be available in
> about
> > a
> > month.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Critical-Realism mailing list
> > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>
>
> End of Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9
> ***********************************************
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 11:47:36 +1000
From: "Hockeys" <limhockey at onthenet.com.au>
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Critiquing Sachs' End of Poverty
To: "Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List"
        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
Message-ID: <35EF938271AD469884915FCB1149C398 at hockey>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

Hi all

I've been searching without success so far, for critical realist critiques of Jeffrey Sachs' 2005 "The End of Poverty" (or of Sachs' work in general).

Could anyone point me in a helpful direction?

Neil

------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Critical-Realism mailing list
Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism


End of Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 10
************************************************

From rgroff at slu.edu  Mon Mar 16 19:28:45 2009
From: rgroff at slu.edu (Ruth Groff)
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 20:28:45 -0500
Subject: [Critical-Realism] MacIntyre
In-Reply-To: <B1ED0DE51AC98D41BCF43145295D40B277C2E920A9@EX2K7-VIRT-3.ads.qub.ac.uk>
References: <B1ED0DE51AC98D41BCF43145295D40B277C2E920A9@EX2K7-VIRT-3.ads.qub.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <6ad241360903161828k481e08b0g875cf554a75b2722@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Phil,

I sent you a personal note, but it's about how Aristotelians, even
MacIntyre, need Marxist theory to properly diagnose instrumental reason.
You know, deep down the connection to cr is probably that I think that a
Marxist Aristotelianism is far more viable, philosophically, and consistent
with cr, than does RB and some cr-ers.  Howard's with me though, I think, on
this.  :)  Or, me with him.  My intuition, as the analytic philosophers like
to say, is that Aristotle is, or at least can be made to be, far more
dialectical than RB seems to think.

But on the surface, there isn't a direct connection to cr in my paper.

I loved the talk, and it was very helpful -- thanks again.

r.





On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 6:45 PM, Philip Anthony O'Hanlon <
pohanlon03 at qub.ac.uk> wrote:

> Hi Ruth,
>
> no problem!    I was very impressed with MacIntyre - 80 years old and sharp
> as a needle.  What are you writing on MacIntyre and how will it relate to
> CR?
>
>
> phil
>
> ________________________________________
> From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu [
> critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of
> critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu [
> critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu]
> Sent: 16 March 2009 18:00
> To: critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> Subject: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 10
>
> Send Critical-Realism mailing list submissions to
>        critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>        http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>        critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>        critical-realism-owner at lists.econ.utah.edu
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Critical-Realism digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9
>      (Philip Anthony O'Hanlon)
>   2. Re: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9 (Ruth Groff)
>   3. Critiquing Sachs' End of Poverty (Hockeys)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 22:13:05 +0000
> From: Philip Anthony O'Hanlon <pohanlon03 at qub.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue
>        9
> To: "critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu"
>        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
> Message-ID:
>        <
> B1ED0DE51AC98D41BCF43145295D40B277C2E920A6 at EX2K7-VIRT-3.ads.qub.ac.uk>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi all
>
> I was lucky enough to see Alasdair MacIntyre's ("On Having Survived the
> Academic Moral Philosophies of the 20th Century") lecture at UCD last
> weekend.  For those of you may be interested there is a video link to it
> here: http://www.ucd.ie/news/2009/03FEB09/110309_macintyre.html
>
> Phil
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu [
> critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of
> critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu [
> critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu]
> Sent: 15 March 2009 18:00
> To: critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> Subject: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9
>
> Send Critical-Realism mailing list submissions to
>        critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>        http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>        critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>        critical-realism-owner at lists.econ.utah.edu
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Critical-Realism digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN INTRODUCTION (Mervyn Hartwig)
>   2. Re: Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN INTRODUCTION (Ruth Groff)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:54:01 -0000
> From: "Mervyn Hartwig" <mh at jaspere7.demon.co.uk>
> Subject: [Critical-Realism] Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
>        INTRODUCTION
> To: "'Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List'"
>        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
> Message-ID:
>        <mailman.2.1237140003.2818.critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> The latest and hopefully final news re Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
> INTRODUCTION is that Verso are reprinting; it should be available in about
> a
> month.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 14:27:36 -0500
> From: Ruth Groff <rgroff at slu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
>        INTRODUCTION
> To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List
>        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
> Message-ID:
>        <6ad241360903141227w4d70dae0h3a48e2db2e14a160 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Yay!  Thanks for this update Mervyn.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 1:54 PM, Mervyn Hartwig <mh at jaspere7.demon.co.uk
> >wrote:
>
> >
> > The latest and hopefully final news re Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
> > INTRODUCTION is that Verso are reprinting; it should be available in
> about
> > a
> > month.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Critical-Realism mailing list
> > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>
>
> End of Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9
> ***********************************************
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 17:27:33 -0500
> From: Ruth Groff <rgroff at slu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue
>        9
> To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List
>        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
> Message-ID:
>        <6ad241360903151527n14b0afdbl21659530ed4b88ba at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Phil you're my hero!  I'm in the throes of writing a piece on him.  Death
> throes.  But that's not his fault; he's brilliant.
>
> Ruth
>
> On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 5:13 PM, Philip Anthony O'Hanlon <
> pohanlon03 at qub.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> > Hi all
> >
> > I was lucky enough to see Alasdair MacIntyre's ("On Having Survived the
> > Academic Moral Philosophies of the 20th Century") lecture at UCD last
> > weekend.  For those of you may be interested there is a video link to it
> > here: http://www.ucd.ie/news/2009/03FEB09/110309_macintyre.html
> >
> > Phil
> >
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu [
> > critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of
> > critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu [
> > critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu]
> > Sent: 15 March 2009 18:00
> > To: critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> > Subject: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9
> >
> > Send Critical-Realism mailing list submissions to
> >        critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >        http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >        critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> >        critical-realism-owner at lists.econ.utah.edu
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Critical-Realism digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >   1. Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN INTRODUCTION (Mervyn Hartwig)
> >   2. Re: Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN INTRODUCTION (Ruth Groff)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:54:01 -0000
> > From: "Mervyn Hartwig" <mh at jaspere7.demon.co.uk>
> > Subject: [Critical-Realism] Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
> >        INTRODUCTION
> > To: "'Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List'"
> >        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
> > Message-ID:
> >        <mailman.2.1237140003.2818.critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
> > Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"
> >
> >
> > The latest and hopefully final news re Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
> > INTRODUCTION is that Verso are reprinting; it should be available in
> about
> > a
> > month.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 14:27:36 -0500
> > From: Ruth Groff <rgroff at slu.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
> >        INTRODUCTION
> > To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List
> >        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
> > Message-ID:
> >        <6ad241360903141227w4d70dae0h3a48e2db2e14a160 at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >
> > Yay!  Thanks for this update Mervyn.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 1:54 PM, Mervyn Hartwig <mh at jaspere7.demon.co.uk
> > >wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > The latest and hopefully final news re Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
> > > INTRODUCTION is that Verso are reprinting; it should be available in
> > about
> > > a
> > > month.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Critical-Realism mailing list
> > > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> > > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
> > >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Critical-Realism mailing list
> > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
> >
> >
> > End of Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9
> > ***********************************************
> > _______________________________________________
> > Critical-Realism mailing list
> > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 11:47:36 +1000
> From: "Hockeys" <limhockey at onthenet.com.au>
> Subject: [Critical-Realism] Critiquing Sachs' End of Poverty
> To: "Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List"
>        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
> Message-ID: <35EF938271AD469884915FCB1149C398 at hockey>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi all
>
> I've been searching without success so far, for critical realist critiques
> of Jeffrey Sachs' 2005 "The End of Poverty" (or of Sachs' work in general).
>
> Could anyone point me in a helpful direction?
>
> Neil
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>
>
> End of Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 10
> ************************************************
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>

From limhockey at onthenet.com.au  Tue Mar 17 05:28:12 2009
From: limhockey at onthenet.com.au (Hockeys)
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 21:28:12 +1000
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Critiquing Sachs' End of Poverty
References: <35EF938271AD469884915FCB1149C398@hockey>
Message-ID: <12A3718A97984DD0AC9E44C7934E8C71@hockey>

Further to this, I've been following Tim Unwin's helpful line of critique of 
Sachs (from nearly 3 years ago) as accessed for example at
http://www.gg.rhul.ac.uk/ict4d/Poverty.pdf

together with some more recent work of Unwin's that doesn't specifically 
mention Sachs.

I also note the article in Left Business Observer #111, of August 2005, 
http://www.leftbusinessobserver.com/Sachs.html

However with no formal background in economics and not being 
university-based, I'm basically checking out what I can on the net in spare 
time, with some focus on the UN Millenium Project as founded in 2002.

Could anyone suggest other lines of investigation?

Neil

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Hockeys" <limhockey at onthenet.com.au>
To: "Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List" 
<critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 11:47 AM
Subject: [Critical-Realism] Critiquing Sachs' End of Poverty


> Hi all
>
> I've been searching without success so far, for critical realist critiques 
> of Jeffrey Sachs' 2005 "The End of Poverty" (or of Sachs' work in 
> general).
>
> Could anyone point me in a helpful direction?
>
> Neil
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism 



From howarde at iastate.edu  Tue Mar 17 10:33:10 2009
From: howarde at iastate.edu (Howard Engelskirchen)
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 12:33:10 -0400
Subject: [Critical-Realism] MacIntyre
Message-ID: <200903171633.n2HGXBpq011429@despam-11.iastate.edu>

Thanks very much, Phil, for the link!  The talk is of exemplary 
clarity, really quite exceptional.  It gives a wonderful survey of 
the landscape of a half century of academic moral theory from a 
thoughtfully cut path through it.

A couple of things.  It would have been nice if he'd sketched a bit 
more of the details of the realism anti-realism debate in ethics -- 
it would have been good to catalogue some of the really essential 
features being missed.  He does that by insisting on the relevance of 
anthropology, sociology, etc., but goes off into issues of the 
formation of Ph.D. candidates rather than actually offering examples 
of the kinds of substantive gaps that are presented and how we might 
respond.  And he emphasizes the perspective of practice, but, for 
lack of examples addressing gaps, there is no real springboard for 
where this goes either.

With you always, Ruth!, though I do hesitate a bit at the phrase 
'Marxist Aristotelianism'.  My qualification goes simply to this as 
pointing a path forward rather than to the issue of relation to cr 
you address.  For the path forward I'd want to speak of developing 
contemporary forms of critical scientific realism often presented and 
anticipated by Marx and in any event continuous with the social 
science he initiated.  But I'm certainly with you that in order to do 
this we need a much, much fuller understanding of how Marx's work is 
informed by Aristotle -- the influence on Marx the scientist seems to 
me decisive.   I will be anxious to see your paper -- I've not paid 
enough attention to MacIntyre -- and your point seems right on.  My 
sense at the end of his talk, after the wonderful clarity of his 
survey, was that he did indeed need more Marxism to offer real 
substance for a conclusion.

Howard


 > Hi Phil,
 >
 > I sent you a personal note, but it's about how Aristotelians, even
 > MacIntyre, need Marxist theory to properly diagnose instrumental reason.
 > You know, deep down the connection to cr is probably that I think that a
 > Marxist Aristotelianism is far more viable, philosophically, and consistent
 > with cr, than does RB and some cr-ers.  Howard's with me though, I think, on
 > this.  :)  Or, me with him.  My intuition, as the analytic philosophers like
 > to say, is that Aristotle is, or at least can be made to be, far more
 > dialectical than RB seems to think.
 >
 > But on the surface, there isn't a direct connection to cr in my paper.
 >
 > I loved the talk, and it was very helpful -- thanks again.
 >
 > r.
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 6:45 PM, Philip Anthony O'Hanlon <
 > pohanlon03 at qub.ac.uk> wrote:
 >
 > > Hi Ruth,
 > >
 > > no problem!    I was very impressed with MacIntyre - 80 years 
old and sharp
 > > as a needle.  What are you writing on MacIntyre and how will it relate to
 > > CR?
 > >
 > >
 > > phil
 > >
 > > ________________________________________
 > > From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu [
 > > critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of
 > > critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu [
 > > critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu]
 > > Sent: 16 March 2009 18:00
 > > To: critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
 > > Subject: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 10
 > >
 > > Send Critical-Realism mailing list submissions to
 > >        critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
 > >
 > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
 > >        http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
 > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
 > >        critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu
 > >
 > > You can reach the person managing the list at
 > >        critical-realism-owner at lists.econ.utah.edu
 > >
 > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
 > > than "Re: Contents of Critical-Realism digest..."
 > >
 > >
 > > Today's Topics:
 > >
 > >   1. Re: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9
 > >      (Philip Anthony O'Hanlon)
 > >   2. Re: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9 (Ruth Groff)
 > >   3. Critiquing Sachs' End of Poverty (Hockeys)
 > >
 > >
 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
 > >
 > > Message: 1
 > > Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 22:13:05 +0000
 > > From: Philip Anthony O'Hanlon <pohanlon03 at qub.ac.uk>
 > > Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue
 > >        9
 > > To: "critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu"
 > >        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
 > > Message-ID:
 > >        <
 > > B1ED0DE51AC98D41BCF43145295D40B277C2E920A6 at EX2K7-VIRT-3.ads.qub.ac.uk>
 > >
 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
 > >
 > > Hi all
 > >
 > > I was lucky enough to see Alasdair MacIntyre's ("On Having Survived the
 > > Academic Moral Philosophies of the 20th Century") lecture at UCD last
 > > weekend.  For those of you may be interested there is a video link to it
 > > here: http://www.ucd.ie/news/2009/03FEB09/110309_macintyre.html
 > >
 > > Phil
 > >
 > >
 > > ________________________________________
 > > From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu [
 > > critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of
 > > critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu [
 > > critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu]
 > > Sent: 15 March 2009 18:00
 > > To: critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
 > > Subject: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9
 > >
 > > Send Critical-Realism mailing list submissions to
 > >        critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
 > >
 > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
 > >        http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
 > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
 > >        critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu
 > >
 > > You can reach the person managing the list at
 > >        critical-realism-owner at lists.econ.utah.edu
 > >
 > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
 > > than "Re: Contents of Critical-Realism digest..."
 > >
 > >
 > > Today's Topics:
 > >
 > >   1. Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN INTRODUCTION (Mervyn Hartwig)
 > >   2. Re: Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN INTRODUCTION (Ruth Groff)
 > >
 > >
 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
 > >
 > > Message: 1
 > > Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:54:01 -0000
 > > From: "Mervyn Hartwig" <mh at jaspere7.demon.co.uk>
 > > Subject: [Critical-Realism] Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
 > >        INTRODUCTION
 > > To: "'Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List'"
 > >        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
 > > Message-ID:
 > >        <mailman.2.1237140003.2818.critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
 > > Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"
 > >
 > >
 > > The latest and hopefully final news re Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
 > > INTRODUCTION is that Verso are reprinting; it should be available in about
 > > a
 > > month.
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > > ------------------------------
 > >
 > > Message: 2
 > > Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 14:27:36 -0500
 > > From: Ruth Groff <rgroff at slu.edu>
 > > Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
 > >        INTRODUCTION
 > > To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List
 > >        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
 > > Message-ID:
 > >        <6ad241360903141227w4d70dae0h3a48e2db2e14a160 at mail.gmail.com>
 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
 > >
 > > Yay!  Thanks for this update Mervyn.
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > > On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 1:54 PM, Mervyn Hartwig <mh at jaspere7.demon.co.uk
 > > >wrote:
 > >
 > > >
 > > > The latest and hopefully final news re Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
 > > > INTRODUCTION is that Verso are reprinting; it should be available in
 > > about
 > > > a
 > > > month.
 > > >
 > > >
 > > >
 > > > _______________________________________________
 > > > Critical-Realism mailing list
 > > > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
 > > > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
 > > >
 > >
 > >
 > > ------------------------------
 > >
 > > _______________________________________________
 > > Critical-Realism mailing list
 > > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
 > > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
 > >
 > >
 > > End of Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9
 > > ***********************************************
 > >
 > >
 > > ------------------------------
 > >
 > > Message: 2
 > > Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 17:27:33 -0500
 > > From: Ruth Groff <rgroff at slu.edu>
 > > Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue
 > >        9
 > > To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List
 > >        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
 > > Message-ID:
 > >        <6ad241360903151527n14b0afdbl21659530ed4b88ba at mail.gmail.com>
 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
 > >
 > > Phil you're my hero!  I'm in the throes of writing a piece on him.  Death
 > > throes.  But that's not his fault; he's brilliant.
 > >
 > > Ruth
 > >
 > > On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 5:13 PM, Philip Anthony O'Hanlon <
 > > pohanlon03 at qub.ac.uk> wrote:
 > >
 > > > Hi all
 > > >
 > > > I was lucky enough to see Alasdair MacIntyre's ("On Having Survived the
 > > > Academic Moral Philosophies of the 20th Century") lecture at UCD last
 > > > weekend.  For those of you may be interested there is a video link to it
 > > > here: http://www.ucd.ie/news/2009/03FEB09/110309_macintyre.html
 > > >
 > > > Phil
 > > >
 > > >
 > > > ________________________________________
 > > > From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu [
 > > > critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of
 > > > critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu [
 > > > critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu]
 > > > Sent: 15 March 2009 18:00
 > > > To: critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
 > > > Subject: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9
 > > >
 > > > Send Critical-Realism mailing list submissions to
 > > >        critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
 > > >
 > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
 > > >        http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
 > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
 > > >        critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu
 > > >
 > > > You can reach the person managing the list at
 > > >        critical-realism-owner at lists.econ.utah.edu
 > > >
 > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
 > > > than "Re: Contents of Critical-Realism digest..."
 > > >
 > > >
 > > > Today's Topics:
 > > >
 > > >   1. Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN INTRODUCTION (Mervyn Hartwig)
 > > >   2. Re: Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN INTRODUCTION (Ruth Groff)
 > > >
 > > >
 > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
 > > >
 > > > Message: 1
 > > > Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:54:01 -0000
 > > > From: "Mervyn Hartwig" <mh at jaspere7.demon.co.uk>
 > > > Subject: [Critical-Realism] Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
 > > >        INTRODUCTION
 > > > To: "'Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List'"
 > > >        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
 > > > Message-ID:
 > > >        <mailman.2.1237140003.2818.critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
 > > > Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"
 > > >
 > > >
 > > > The latest and hopefully final news re Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
 > > > INTRODUCTION is that Verso are reprinting; it should be available in
 > > about
 > > > a
 > > > month.
 > > >
 > > >
 > > >
 > > >
 > > >
 > > > ------------------------------
 > > >
 > > > Message: 2
 > > > Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 14:27:36 -0500
 > > > From: Ruth Groff <rgroff at slu.edu>
 > > > Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
 > > >        INTRODUCTION
 > > > To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List
 > > >        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
 > > > Message-ID:
 > > >        <6ad241360903141227w4d70dae0h3a48e2db2e14a160 at mail.gmail.com>
 > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
 > > >
 > > > Yay!  Thanks for this update Mervyn.
 > > >
 > > >
 > > >
 > > > On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 1:54 PM, Mervyn Hartwig <mh at jaspere7.demon.co.uk
 > > > >wrote:
 > > >
 > > > >
 > > > > The latest and hopefully final news re Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
 > > > > INTRODUCTION is that Verso are reprinting; it should be available in
 > > > about
 > > > > a
 > > > > month.
 > > > >
 > > > >
 > > > >
 > > > > _______________________________________________
 > > > > Critical-Realism mailing list
 > > > > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
 > > > > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
 > > > >
 > > >
 > > >
 > > > ------------------------------
 > > >
 > > > _______________________________________________
 > > > Critical-Realism mailing list
 > > > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
 > > > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
 > > >
 > > >
 > > > End of Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9
 > > > ***********************************************
 > > > _______________________________________________
 > > > Critical-Realism mailing list
 > > > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
 > > > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
 > > >
 > >
 > >
 > > ------------------------------
 > >
 > > Message: 3
 > > Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 11:47:36 +1000
 > > From: "Hockeys" <limhockey at onthenet.com.au>
 > > Subject: [Critical-Realism] Critiquing Sachs' End of Poverty
 > > To: "Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List"
 > >        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
 > > Message-ID: <35EF938271AD469884915FCB1149C398 at hockey>
 > > Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"
 > >
 > > Hi all
 > >
 > > I've been searching without success so far, for critical realist critiques
 > > of Jeffrey Sachs' 2005 "The End of Poverty" (or of Sachs' work 
in general).
 > >
 > > Could anyone point me in a helpful direction?
 > >
 > > Neil
 > >
 > > ------------------------------
 > >
 > > _______________________________________________
 > > Critical-Realism mailing list
 > > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
 > > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
 > >
 > >
 > > End of Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 10
 > > ************************************************
 > > _______________________________________________
 > > Critical-Realism mailing list
 > > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
 > > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
 > >
 > _______________________________________________
 > Critical-Realism mailing list
 > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
 > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
 >



From rgroff at slu.edu  Tue Mar 17 11:18:19 2009
From: rgroff at slu.edu (Ruth Groff)
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 12:18:19 -0500
Subject: [Critical-Realism] MacIntyre
In-Reply-To: <200903171633.n2HGXBpq011429@despam-11.iastate.edu>
References: <200903171633.n2HGXBpq011429@despam-11.iastate.edu>
Message-ID: <6ad241360903171018v28d321a5h32fd738f86839354@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Howard,

Ok now I have a compelling reason to make my paper be good!

MacIntyre is brilliant.  Jameson, for what it's worth, wrote in his review
of After Virtue at the time that AV was the best account of reification
around.  It's just that MacIntyre himself, in my view, under-appreciates
this.  Anyway, once I write the paper I'll be eager for feedback.  I'm
behind in everything -- your paper included, which I will hope to be able to
read on the weekend ...

r.




On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Howard Engelskirchen
<howarde at iastate.edu>wrote:

> Thanks very much, Phil, for the link!  The talk is of exemplary
> clarity, really quite exceptional.  It gives a wonderful survey of
> the landscape of a half century of academic moral theory from a
> thoughtfully cut path through it.
>
> A couple of things.  It would have been nice if he'd sketched a bit
> more of the details of the realism anti-realism debate in ethics --
> it would have been good to catalogue some of the really essential
> features being missed.  He does that by insisting on the relevance of
> anthropology, sociology, etc., but goes off into issues of the
> formation of Ph.D. candidates rather than actually offering examples
> of the kinds of substantive gaps that are presented and how we might
> respond.  And he emphasizes the perspective of practice, but, for
> lack of examples addressing gaps, there is no real springboard for
> where this goes either.
>
> With you always, Ruth!, though I do hesitate a bit at the phrase
> 'Marxist Aristotelianism'.  My qualification goes simply to this as
> pointing a path forward rather than to the issue of relation to cr
> you address.  For the path forward I'd want to speak of developing
> contemporary forms of critical scientific realism often presented and
> anticipated by Marx and in any event continuous with the social
> science he initiated.  But I'm certainly with you that in order to do
> this we need a much, much fuller understanding of how Marx's work is
> informed by Aristotle -- the influence on Marx the scientist seems to
> me decisive.   I will be anxious to see your paper -- I've not paid
> enough attention to MacIntyre -- and your point seems right on.  My
> sense at the end of his talk, after the wonderful clarity of his
> survey, was that he did indeed need more Marxism to offer real
> substance for a conclusion.
>
> Howard
>
>
>  > Hi Phil,
>  >
>  > I sent you a personal note, but it's about how Aristotelians, even
>  > MacIntyre, need Marxist theory to properly diagnose instrumental reason.
>  > You know, deep down the connection to cr is probably that I think that a
>  > Marxist Aristotelianism is far more viable, philosophically, and
> consistent
>  > with cr, than does RB and some cr-ers.  Howard's with me though, I
> think, on
>  > this.  :)  Or, me with him.  My intuition, as the analytic philosophers
> like
>  > to say, is that Aristotle is, or at least can be made to be, far more
>  > dialectical than RB seems to think.
>  >
>  > But on the surface, there isn't a direct connection to cr in my paper.
>  >
>  > I loved the talk, and it was very helpful -- thanks again.
>  >
>  > r.
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 6:45 PM, Philip Anthony O'Hanlon <
>  > pohanlon03 at qub.ac.uk> wrote:
>  >
>  > > Hi Ruth,
>  > >
>  > > no problem!    I was very impressed with MacIntyre - 80 years
> old and sharp
>  > > as a needle.  What are you writing on MacIntyre and how will it relate
> to
>  > > CR?
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > phil
>  > >
>  > > ________________________________________
>  > > From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu [
>  > > critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of
>  > > critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu [
>  > > critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu]
>  > > Sent: 16 March 2009 18:00
>  > > To: critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>  > > Subject: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 10
>  > >
>  > > Send Critical-Realism mailing list submissions to
>  > >        critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>  > >
>  > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>  > >        http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>  > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>  > >        critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu
>  > >
>  > > You can reach the person managing the list at
>  > >        critical-realism-owner at lists.econ.utah.edu
>  > >
>  > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>  > > than "Re: Contents of Critical-Realism digest..."
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > Today's Topics:
>  > >
>  > >   1. Re: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9
>  > >      (Philip Anthony O'Hanlon)
>  > >   2. Re: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9 (Ruth Groff)
>  > >   3. Critiquing Sachs' End of Poverty (Hockeys)
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>  > >
>  > > Message: 1
>  > > Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 22:13:05 +0000
>  > > From: Philip Anthony O'Hanlon <pohanlon03 at qub.ac.uk>
>  > > Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue
>  > >        9
>  > > To: "critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu"
>  > >        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
>  > > Message-ID:
>  > >        <
>  > > B1ED0DE51AC98D41BCF43145295D40B277C2E920A6 at EX2K7-VIRT-3.ads.qub.ac.uk
> >
>  > >
>  > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>  > >
>  > > Hi all
>  > >
>  > > I was lucky enough to see Alasdair MacIntyre's ("On Having Survived
> the
>  > > Academic Moral Philosophies of the 20th Century") lecture at UCD last
>  > > weekend.  For those of you may be interested there is a video link to
> it
>  > > here: http://www.ucd.ie/news/2009/03FEB09/110309_macintyre.html
>  > >
>  > > Phil
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > ________________________________________
>  > > From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu [
>  > > critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of
>  > > critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu [
>  > > critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu]
>  > > Sent: 15 March 2009 18:00
>  > > To: critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>  > > Subject: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9
>  > >
>  > > Send Critical-Realism mailing list submissions to
>  > >        critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>  > >
>  > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>  > >        http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>  > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>  > >        critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu
>  > >
>  > > You can reach the person managing the list at
>  > >        critical-realism-owner at lists.econ.utah.edu
>  > >
>  > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>  > > than "Re: Contents of Critical-Realism digest..."
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > Today's Topics:
>  > >
>  > >   1. Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN INTRODUCTION (Mervyn Hartwig)
>  > >   2. Re: Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN INTRODUCTION (Ruth Groff)
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>  > >
>  > > Message: 1
>  > > Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:54:01 -0000
>  > > From: "Mervyn Hartwig" <mh at jaspere7.demon.co.uk>
>  > > Subject: [Critical-Realism] Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
>  > >        INTRODUCTION
>  > > To: "'Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List'"
>  > >        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
>  > > Message-ID:
>  > >        <
> mailman.2.1237140003.2818.critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
>  > > Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > The latest and hopefully final news re Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
>  > > INTRODUCTION is that Verso are reprinting; it should be available in
> about
>  > > a
>  > > month.
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > ------------------------------
>  > >
>  > > Message: 2
>  > > Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 14:27:36 -0500
>  > > From: Ruth Groff <rgroff at slu.edu>
>  > > Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
>  > >        INTRODUCTION
>  > > To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List
>  > >        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
>  > > Message-ID:
>  > >        <6ad241360903141227w4d70dae0h3a48e2db2e14a160 at mail.gmail.com>
>  > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>  > >
>  > > Yay!  Thanks for this update Mervyn.
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 1:54 PM, Mervyn Hartwig <
> mh at jaspere7.demon.co.uk
>  > > >wrote:
>  > >
>  > > >
>  > > > The latest and hopefully final news re Collier's CRITICAL REALISM:
> AN
>  > > > INTRODUCTION is that Verso are reprinting; it should be available in
>  > > about
>  > > > a
>  > > > month.
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > > _______________________________________________
>  > > > Critical-Realism mailing list
>  > > > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>  > > > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>  > > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > ------------------------------
>  > >
>  > > _______________________________________________
>  > > Critical-Realism mailing list
>  > > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>  > > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > End of Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9
>  > > ***********************************************
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > ------------------------------
>  > >
>  > > Message: 2
>  > > Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 17:27:33 -0500
>  > > From: Ruth Groff <rgroff at slu.edu>
>  > > Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue
>  > >        9
>  > > To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List
>  > >        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
>  > > Message-ID:
>  > >        <6ad241360903151527n14b0afdbl21659530ed4b88ba at mail.gmail.com>
>  > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>  > >
>  > > Phil you're my hero!  I'm in the throes of writing a piece on him.
>  Death
>  > > throes.  But that's not his fault; he's brilliant.
>  > >
>  > > Ruth
>  > >
>  > > On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 5:13 PM, Philip Anthony O'Hanlon <
>  > > pohanlon03 at qub.ac.uk> wrote:
>  > >
>  > > > Hi all
>  > > >
>  > > > I was lucky enough to see Alasdair MacIntyre's ("On Having Survived
> the
>  > > > Academic Moral Philosophies of the 20th Century") lecture at UCD
> last
>  > > > weekend.  For those of you may be interested there is a video link
> to it
>  > > > here: http://www.ucd.ie/news/2009/03FEB09/110309_macintyre.html
>  > > >
>  > > > Phil
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > > ________________________________________
>  > > > From: critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu [
>  > > > critical-realism-bounces at lists.econ.utah.edu] On Behalf Of
>  > > > critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu [
>  > > > critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu]
>  > > > Sent: 15 March 2009 18:00
>  > > > To: critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>  > > > Subject: Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9
>  > > >
>  > > > Send Critical-Realism mailing list submissions to
>  > > >        critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>  > > >
>  > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>  > > >        http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>  > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>  > > >        critical-realism-request at lists.econ.utah.edu
>  > > >
>  > > > You can reach the person managing the list at
>  > > >        critical-realism-owner at lists.econ.utah.edu
>  > > >
>  > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>  > > > than "Re: Contents of Critical-Realism digest..."
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > > Today's Topics:
>  > > >
>  > > >   1. Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN INTRODUCTION (Mervyn Hartwig)
>  > > >   2. Re: Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN INTRODUCTION (Ruth Groff)
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>  > > >
>  > > > Message: 1
>  > > > Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:54:01 -0000
>  > > > From: "Mervyn Hartwig" <mh at jaspere7.demon.co.uk>
>  > > > Subject: [Critical-Realism] Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
>  > > >        INTRODUCTION
>  > > > To: "'Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List'"
>  > > >        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
>  > > > Message-ID:
>  > > >        <
> mailman.2.1237140003.2818.critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
>  > > > Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > > The latest and hopefully final news re Collier's CRITICAL REALISM:
> AN
>  > > > INTRODUCTION is that Verso are reprinting; it should be available in
>  > > about
>  > > > a
>  > > > month.
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > > ------------------------------
>  > > >
>  > > > Message: 2
>  > > > Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 14:27:36 -0500
>  > > > From: Ruth Groff <rgroff at slu.edu>
>  > > > Subject: Re: [Critical-Realism] Collier's CRITICAL REALISM: AN
>  > > >        INTRODUCTION
>  > > > To: Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List
>  > > >        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
>  > > > Message-ID:
>  > > >        <6ad241360903141227w4d70dae0h3a48e2db2e14a160 at mail.gmail.com
> >
>  > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>  > > >
>  > > > Yay!  Thanks for this update Mervyn.
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > > On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 1:54 PM, Mervyn Hartwig <
> mh at jaspere7.demon.co.uk
>  > > > >wrote:
>  > > >
>  > > > >
>  > > > > The latest and hopefully final news re Collier's CRITICAL REALISM:
> AN
>  > > > > INTRODUCTION is that Verso are reprinting; it should be available
> in
>  > > > about
>  > > > > a
>  > > > > month.
>  > > > >
>  > > > >
>  > > > >
>  > > > > _______________________________________________
>  > > > > Critical-Realism mailing list
>  > > > > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>  > > > > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>  > > > >
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > > ------------------------------
>  > > >
>  > > > _______________________________________________
>  > > > Critical-Realism mailing list
>  > > > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>  > > > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > > End of Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 9
>  > > > ***********************************************
>  > > > _______________________________________________
>  > > > Critical-Realism mailing list
>  > > > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>  > > > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>  > > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > ------------------------------
>  > >
>  > > Message: 3
>  > > Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 11:47:36 +1000
>  > > From: "Hockeys" <limhockey at onthenet.com.au>
>  > > Subject: [Critical-Realism] Critiquing Sachs' End of Poverty
>  > > To: "Continuation of the Spoon Bhaskar List"
>  > >        <critical-realism at lists.econ.utah.edu>
>  > > Message-ID: <35EF938271AD469884915FCB1149C398 at hockey>
>  > > Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"
>  > >
>  > > Hi all
>  > >
>  > > I've been searching without success so far, for critical realist
> critiques
>  > > of Jeffrey Sachs' 2005 "The End of Poverty" (or of Sachs' work
> in general).
>  > >
>  > > Could anyone point me in a helpful direction?
>  > >
>  > > Neil
>  > >
>  > > ------------------------------
>  > >
>  > > _______________________________________________
>  > > Critical-Realism mailing list
>  > > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>  > > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > End of Critical-Realism Digest, Vol 52, Issue 10
>  > > ************************************************
>  > > _______________________________________________
>  > > Critical-Realism mailing list
>  > > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>  > > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>  > >
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > Critical-Realism mailing list
>  > Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
>  > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>  >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Critical-Realism mailing list
> Critical-Realism at lists.econ.utah.edu
> http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/critical-realism
>