[A-List] A comment

[Omahkohkiaayo_ipoyi]

CB: Let me say first that given the invective on this thread, I consider my
discussion of this with Jim as a friendly disagreement between comrades, to
the extent that we disagree, and I don't disagree with everything Jim is
saying. ^^^^ 

Response: Jim C 

Thanks to Charles for his patience with me. And by the way, and I hope
Melvin is reading this, with Melvin's last message that I read, with very
quiet eloquence and "stepping up", Melvin only proved how wrong I was in my
invective, characterizations and responses to him whatever our
disagreements. I hope there will never be another hostile exchange between
us and I do respect that he must have had a long struggle to survive in an
industry with long histories of racism in management as well as on the
union side. 

I will only add this, and this is why I sent out some stuff from Theoharis'
stuff from the Official and Confidential files of J.Edgar, clearly never
intended to  be made public and verified/triangulated from other sources
who had seen th edocuments extemporariously, is that whatever one does, if
MLK had been fucking sheep I would not say much about it except to say
whatever it is, if you have to hide it, and it is at variance with a public
personna, and if it being discovered will comporomise a Cause and the
interests of all those served by the Cause then don't do it or get the fuck
out of the Movement. 

His meeting with J. Edgar, AT MLK's REQUEST--at which he was kissing J.
Edgar's ass, bragging about his anti-Communism and getting rid of any found
communists in the movement, telling about how he is urging all followers to
cooperate with the FBI, with Hoover making veiled suggestive
references/threats about how important it was for Negro leaders not to
compromise their effectivness etc etc, none of which would have been
necessary for him had he not submitted himself to blackmail potential, for
me says it all. 

Look it is not about moral values x over y only whatever yours are, then be
open about it or don't do it so that values/behavior they cannot be used
against you by our enemies. If one believes in "Open Marriage" or if one is
Gay or whatever, it can only be used to blackmail and neutralize if it is
covert and/or at variance with a public personna and profile. That is the
point. It is not about puritanism, the alleged typical sensibilities of
African-American versus non-African-American "sisters" etc. And we males
must be very careful in characterizing how "sisters" might "typically feel"
about sex or anything as often what we see as what sisters might want or
expect is not that but what the sisters have had to endure and thus, due to
power disparities, project as what they have been conditioned as we males
might likely expect and perhaps react negatively if it is not got. 

For me it is simply: If the Cause ever becomes too much that to be
effective I have to "walk my talk" in ways I am not prepared and/or too
weak and tired to do, I hope I will have the decency to leave the Movement
rather than to endanger it or cause it to be compromised because of my own
weaknesses or unwillingness to walk my talk and/or proclivities, even if I
believe are not wrong, could be used to compromise the Cause as that would
put my pleasures above the Cause.

As for "girls will be girls" versus "boys will be boys", I don't know
except to say maybe a good rule is to ask how would/should we want our own
sisters, mothers, daughters and partners as well as ourselves to be
treated. If some guy is engaging in sex with woman, or a man with a man or
a woman with a woman, never caring even to learn her/his full name, never
asking how to contact that person in the future, never offering how that
person can contact oneself in the future, then the other person is indeed
being used as a recepticle and not being teated as a full, feeling,
multi-dimensional human being; the same applies in the case of researchers
and academics using reasearch "subjects" as objects never caring to follow
up or give the research "subjects" to contact oneself. That was my point
not the particular acts involved themselves so much. 

Jim C. 

------------------------------------------------------

¡°If  the construction of the future and its completion for all time is not
our task, all the more certain is what we must accomplish in the present. I
mean, the ruthless criticism of everything that exists; the criticism being
ruthless in the sense that it fears neither its own results nor conflict
with the powers that be.¡± Karl Marx, letter to Arnold Ruge, 1843 


>From ¡°From the Secret Files of J. Edgar Hoover: Edited With Commentary by
Athan Theoharis¡±,  Ivan R Dee Publishers, Chicago, 1991  pp. 102-107 


¡°Anonymous letter (drafted by FBI) to Martin Luther King, Jr., undated but
[was sent] November 21, 1964 

In view of your low grade, I will not dignify your name with either a Mr.
or a Reverend or a Dr. And, your last name calls to mind only the type of
King such as King Henry the VIII. 

King, look into your heart. You know you are a complete fraud and a great
liability to all of us Negroes. White people in this country have enough
frauds of their own but I am sure that they don¡¯t have one at this time
that is anywhere near your equal. You are no clergyman and you know it. I
repeat you are a colossal fraud and an evil, vicious one at that. You could
not believe in God and act as you do. Clearly you don¡¯t believe in any
personal moral principles. 

King, like all frauds your end is approaching. You could have been our
greatest leader. You, even at an early age have turned out not to be a
leader but a dissolute, abnormal moral imbecile. We will not have to depend
on our older leaders like [NAACP executive secretary Roy] Wilkins a man of
character and thank God we have others like him. But you are done. Your
¡®honorary¡¯ degrees, your Nobel Prize (what a grim farce) and other awards
will not save you King, I repeat you are done. 

No person can overcome facts, not even a fraud like yourself. Lend your ear
to the enclosure. [Transcripts of intercepted conversations of King spliced
to convey his involvements in illicit sexual activities] exposed on the
record for all time. I repeat, No person can argue successfully against
facts. You are finished. You will find on the record for all time [line
withheld reference to illicit sexual activities] to your hideous
abnormalities. [Phrase withheld] to pretend to be ministers of the Gospel.
Satan could do no more. What incredible evilness. It is all there on the
record, [five lines withheld, again referring to sexual activities]. King,
you are done. 

The American public, the church organizations that you have been
helping¡ªProtestant, Catholic and Jews will know you for what you are¡ªan
evil abnormal beast. So will others who have backed you. You are done. 

King, there is only one thing left for you to do. You know what it is. You
have just 34 days in which to do (this exact number has been selected for a
specific reason, it has definite practical significance) [King was to be
formally awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in thirty-four days]. You are done.
There is but one way out for you. You better take it before your filthy,
abnormal fraudulent self is bared to the nation.¡± 

Memo, FBI Assistant Director Cartha DeLoach to FBI Assistant Director John
Mohr, November 27, 1964, FBI 62-78270-16 

Roy Wilkins, Executive Secretary, National Association for the Advancement
of Colored People¡­stated that he had to fly down to Washington to see me
immediately¡­ 

Wilkins arrived at 4:00 pm. He stated to me he was greatly concerned. He
made reference to the Director¡¯s Loyola speech last Tuesday, 11/24/64, in
which the Director made reference to ¡®sexual degenerates¡¯ in pressure
groups. Wilkins stated he personally knew about whom the Director was
talking, although many other Negroes did not know. [Three and a half
paragraphs withheld pertaining to the FBI¡¯s monitoring of King¡¯s
political and personal activities.] 

Wilkins stressed the fact that he was not seeing me as an emissary. He
stated he had some influence on King but not much. He added that there were
others within his movement who had greater influence and that perhaps
together some pressure could be brought on King. Wilkins then added that he
hoped that the FBI would not expose King before something could be done. 

I interrupted Wilkins at this point. I told him that the Director, of
course, did not have in mind the destruction of the civil rights movement
as a whole. I told him the Director sympathized with the civil rights
movement¡­[but] that we deeply and bitterly resented the lies and
falsehoods told by King and that if King wanted war we certainly would give
it to him. Wilkins shook his head and stated there was no doubt in his mind
as to which side would lose if the FBI really came out with all its
ammunition against King. I told him the ammunition was plentiful and that
while we were not responsible for the many rumors being initiated against
King, we had heard of these rumors and were certainly in a position to
substantiate them. 

I told Wilkins that¡­he should know a few positive facts of life¡­[that]
certain highly-placed informants of ours had tipped us off to absolutely
reliable information that King had organized a bitter crusade against the
Director and the FBI. I told Wilkins that these long-standing and well
placed informants had advised us that King had contacted people in various
parts of the United States to get them to send telegrams to the President,
the Attorney General, and the FBI asking for Mr. Hoover¡¯s retirement or
resignation. I told Wilkins that King had also encouraged telegrams to be
sent advising the FBI or laxness in the investigation of civil rights
matters. I asked Wilkins how in the hell could he expect the FBI to believe
his offers of friendship as a request for peace when King was at this time
attempting to ruin us¡­ 

Wilkins stated [King] was wrong in his criticism of the Director. He added
that he was attempting to accomplish, in a mild manner, a division between
the battle of  the Director and King and any phases of the battle which
would reflect upon the civil rights movement¡­ 

Wilkins¡­will attempt to see King, along with other Negro leaders, and tell
King he can¡¯t possibly win any battle with FBI¡­He stated he may not have
any success in this regard, however he is convinced that FBI can easily
ruin King overnight. [Two lines withheld referring to the FBI¡¯s derogatory
personal information about King¡¯s sexual activities.] I told Wilkins this,
of course, was up to him; however, I wanted to reiterate once again most
strongly, that if King wanted war we were prepared to give it to him and
let the chips fall where they may. Wilkins stated this would be more
disastereous[sic], particularly to the Negro movement and that he hoped
this would never come about. I told him that the monkey was on his back and
that of the other Negro leaders. He stated he realized this¡­ 

[Hoover¡¯s tough stand stemmed from a concern for his job. He was to reach
the mandatory retirement age of seventy on January 1, 1965, and his
continued tenure as director was assured only because of an executive order
issued by President Johnson in May 1964. King¡¯s criticisms had
precipitated demands that Johnson rescind his order and effect Hoover¡¯s
retirement the next month]. 


Memo, FBI Assistant Director Cartha DeLoach to FBI Assistant Director John
Mohr, December 2, 1964, FBI 100-1066770-634 

At Reverend King¡¯s request,  the Director met with King; Reverend Ralph
Abernathy, Secretary of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference
(SCLC); Dr. Andrew Young, Executive Assistant to King; and Walter Fauntroy,
SCLC representative here in Washington, at 3:35 p.m., 12-1-64, in the
Director¡¯s Office¡­ 

Reverend King spoke up. He stated that it was vitally necessary to keep a
working relationship with the FBI. He wanted to clear up any
misunderstanding which might have occurred. He stated that some Negroes had
told him that the FBI had been ineffective, however, he was inclined to
discount such criticism. Reverend King asked that the Director please
understand that any criticism of the Director and the FBI which had been
attributed to King was either a misquote or an outright
misrepresentation¡­He stated that the only time he had ever criticized the
FBI was because of instances in which Special Agents who had been given
complaints in civil rights cases regarding brutality by police officers
were seen the following day being friendly with those same police
officers¡­ 

Reverend King said he personally appreciated the great work of the FBI
which had been done in so many instances. He stated this was particularly
true in Mississippi¡­Reverend King denied that he had ever stated that
Negroes should not report information to the FBI. He said he had actually
encouraged such reporting¡­[and] would continue to strongly urge all of his
people to work closely with the FBI. 

Reverend King stated he has never made any personal attack upon Mr. Hoover.
He stated he mad merely tried to articulate the feelings of the Negroes in
the South in order to keep a tradition of nonviolence rather than
violence¡­ 

Reverend King stated he has been, and still is, very concerned regarding
the matter of communism in the civil rights movement. He stated he knew
that the Director was very concerned because he bore the responsibility of
security in the Nation¡­He claims that when he learns the identity of a
communist in his midst he immediately deals with the problem by removing
this man¡­ 

The Director interrupted King to state that the FBI had learned from long
experience that the communists move in when trouble starts. The Director
explained that communists thrive on chaos. The Director mentioned that his
riot report [of 1964] to the President reflected the opportunistic efforts
of communists. He then stated that communists have no interest in the
future of the Negro race and that King, of all people, should be aware of
this fact. The Director spoke briefly about communist attempts to
infiltrate the labor movement. 

The Director told King and his associates that the FBI shares the same
despair which the Negroes suffer when Negro leaders refused to accept the
deep responsibility they have in the civil rights movement. He stated when
Negroes are encouraged not to cooperate with the FBI this sometimes
frustrates or delays successful solution of investigations¡­ 

The Director told Reverend King that the FBI had put ¡®the fear of God¡¯ in
the Ku Klux Klan (KKK)¡­The Director then spoke of the terror in
Mississippi backwoods and of the fact that sheriffs and deputy sheriffs
participate in crimes of violence¡­The Director added that the KKK
constantly damns the FBI and that we have currently been classified as the
¡®Federal Bureau of Integration¡¯ in Mississippi. 

The Director told King that many cases, which have been brought about as a
result of FBI investigation, must be tried in State Court. He spoke of the
difficulty of obtaining a verdict of guilty in instances in which white
juries were impaneled in cases involving white men. 

The Director made reference to Reverend King¡¯s allegation that the FBI
deals or associates with law enforcement officers who have been involved in
civil rights violations. He stated emphatically that ¡®I¡¯ll be damned if
the FBI has associated with any of these people nor will be associated with
them in the future¡¯¡­He added that he made it a point, several years ago,
to transfer northern Special Agents to southern offices. He stressed that,
for the most part, northern-born Agents are assigned civil rights cases in
the South. The Director added that he feels that our Special Agents,
regardless of where they were born, will investigate a case impartially and
thoroughly¡­ 

The Director explained that there is a great misunderstanding today among
the general public and particularly the Negro race as to what the FBI can
and cannot do in the way of investigations.  The Director emphasized that
the FBI cannot recommend prosecution¡­[but] merely investigates and then
the Department of Justice determines whether prosecution be entertained or
not¡­ 

The Director told Reverend King and his associates that FBI representatives
have held several thousand law enforcement conferences in which southern
police officers have been educated as to civil rights legislation¡­He added
that this educational campaign will be continued and that it will
eventually take hold¡­ 

The Director told King he desired to give him some advice. He stated that
one of the greatest things the Negro leaders could accomplish would be to
encourage voting registration among their people. Another thing would be to
educate their people in the skills so that they could compete in the open
market. The Director mentioned several professions in which Negroes could
easily learn skills. The Director also told King he wanted him to know that
the registrars in the South were now more careful in their actions.  He
stated that there were less attempts now to prevent Negroes from
registering inasmuch as the FBI is watching such actions very carefully.
The Director told Reverend King that the FBI was making progress in
violations regarding discrimination in eating places¡­The Director stated
he personally was in favor of equality in eating places and in schools. He
stated emphatically, however, he was not in favor of taking Negro children
10 or 12 miles across town simply because their parents wanted them to go
to a school other than those in their specific neighborhood¡­ 

The Director told King that he wanted to make it clear that the question is
often raised as to whether the FBI will protect civil rights workers or
Negroes. He stated that¡­the FBI does not have the authority nor the
jurisdiction to protect anyone. He stated that when the Department of
Justice desires that Negroes be protected this is the responsibility of
U.S. Marshalls¡­ 


----------------------------------------------------------------


But I am troubled when male comrades take a "boys-will-be-boys" attitude
towards covert sexual activities (and in MLK's case there were apparently
many and in inner leadership around King was in on it as they arranged his
rendezvous--always with women who, as experienced, could be counted on for
discretion) that not only constitute hypocrisy from a public personna and
potential compromise of leadership and the Movement, but also constitute
very callous using of human beings already abused, exploited and used as
"Holes to Put a Penis In". Those women, even if experienced and
callous-hardened "Pros", are part of "The Wretched of the Earth" a lot of
intellectuals and pampered Preachers (and yes I do consider most "preachers
parasites who don't know how to do a decent day's work) on whose backs,
sweat, suffering and deaths the intellectuals and pampered preachers rode
to Nobel Prize status and acclaim on. 

^^^^^ CB: My attitude is not that "boys-will-be-boys".  I really don't know
for sure what King's attitude was toward the women he had sex with, but I
suspect that he did not consider them whores or pieces of meat. There is
some likelihood that he was consistent in applying his well known
principles to those relationships. That is, he considered them full and
equal human beings, and that , frankly, sex is not inherently dirty or bad,
and even, in fact , co-loving in a very high way between the partners who
are co-respecting. 

Oddly, there is also the "precedent" of Jesus befriending and defending
prostitutes. Did he not have sex with them ? 

There is some probability that it was just as much "girls-will-be-girls",
as "boys-will-be-boys". I mean by that that most of the women ( Black
women) I know are pretty strong, self-deterimining subjects in their
relationships with men, including their sexual relationships. I don't think
it is definite at all that these relationships were not mutually
respectful. There is a good chance that they were initiated by the women,
not King. One of them wrote a book about her affair with King, many years
later. That sort of indicates she was proud of the relationship. Certainly
not that she was used. I kind of have to respect her opinion of the
relationship over everybody else's. 

There is a sort of cultural issue here, as Melvin has indicated. What these
women thought about these relationships is very important in deciding
whether this was male supremacism or Black romance with mutual male-female
respect that basically is not understood by White Christian thinking and
American monogamous standard thinking, whatever. Frankly, my opinion is
that European Christian attitudes about sex are sick in fundamental ways,
and Black culture has healthier attitudes about it. And this cultural
difference may be an expression of female power more than one thinks. 

Of course, there are contradictions on this within Black culture, but I
won't elaborate on that here. 

Also, King may not have actually personally believed in the Christian
principle of monoagamy. The fact that he couldn't publically declared so
doesn't make him a hypocrite. There are major social ethical principles I
don't agree with, but I don't see why I have to suffer the consequences of
publcially announcing so. 

^^^^^ 

I can't understand why anyone who has seen death, misery, suicides, poor
and exploited people, and who has been touched deeply in any real way,
could forget what they have seen and risk compromising the Movements for
the liberation of those oppressed. How could anyone really serious, not
once, but many times, with carefully orchestrated liasons, put his sick
pleasures, kept carefully covert except from the FBI anyone with half a
brain knew was on him 24/7, and care nothing about the damage to a whole
movement by a principle leader being compromised and exposed as really a
Doctor Jekyll and Mr. Hyde beyond what is typical in most people but who
are not psychopathic or sociopathic? And on one tape, one that LBJ used to
love to play for various audiences, sent to Correta King after first sent
to MLK giving him 30 days to "Do The Right Thing" (commit suicide), this
woman says very quietly and almost with sorrow, Dr. King you shouldn't be
here" with MLKs responding "Tonight I'm just another nigger". And what was
going through his mind as he was using this woman as a piece of meat only
to go out and give one of his speeches apparently--to me anyways--savoring,
liker a fine wine or filet mignon, the sound and eloquence and tempo and
tones of his own voice and theatrics? 

^^^^^^ CB; Yea, I think it is accurate to say he was taking a risk of
undermining his major contribution to the movement. 

With due respect to Jim, I still have to say , I ain't mad at Dr. King.
With the risk of exposing my own weaknesses, I have some empathy for what
might have been King's ambiguity about sacrificing his personal happiness
for the movement. Sometimes I wonder has it been worth it for me to make
personal sacrifices for the movement. So, it is hard for me to judge King
harshly. Yes, excellent preaching and idealistic speechmaking involves
theatrics and role playing, playing a role and ideal that it may be
difficult to live up to 100%. King no doubt thought from time to time, "is
it worth sacrificing my life for all this ?"  Yes, he was not the saint
that his public image took on. But then could he have anticipated
everything that he got into when he started to lead and speak out ? 
Certainly he knew he was on a death list long before he was actually
killed. Certainly, he had very depressed and self-questioning moments. He
was quite alone or isolated in much he did. After his death, everybody was
"with" him. While he was struggling, the NAACP didn't even support him. The
whole Black Baptist church split, with him founding a new section that
exists to this day. That means most of the Baptist ministers were not
supporting him, were criticizing him. In other words, he was challenging
the role of the opportunistic preacher that Jim alludes to. Most people
don't realize how alone and isolated he was during most of his most famous
struggles. I can see him thinking, "well, if I must sacrifice my life at a
young age ( he was in his twenties and thirties through his famous work), I
will reward myself with some of the highest happiness there is. 

^^^^^^ 

No it is the masses that make history as well as the "leaders" that get the
credit for making both history and any mention of those masses in
bourgeois-individualist-hero-genius-versions of "history" and who really
makes it. 

^^^^^ CB: But King never promoted himself as this type. He had lots of
humility and modesty. His statement "Tonight, I'm just another N." has
significance in this regard in my opinion, though I cannot in the least
accept as accurate or clear proof of what actually happened snippets of
tapes, allegations from the FBI or reports from LBJ or reporters with LBJ
or the Kennedys. All those reports are highly suspect , subject to
distortion and misrepresentation.  No way I would rely on all that without
giving King a chance to give his side of the story. 

^^^^^ 

MLK Day? Just look at who supports it and profits from it. Even J. Edgar
shielded MLK in many ways and forms, just as the Kennedys, who had first
ordered surveillance on him that J Edgar initially questioned believe it or
not, because they saw in the end his could have some value in keeping
African-Americans away from more radical and potentially more militant
forms of Black nationalism, also made sure that few in the movement knew
about his hypocrisy and double life. As Charles notes, very few, except in
the hierarchy of the SCLC and FBI, knew about MLKs other forms of
"Overcoming"; but that begs the question: Why didn't they expose MLK
thoroughly as it would have been so easy to do? Why was MLK even able to
meet J Edgar in his office where he reportedly so politely and solicitously
shuffled around like Stepinfetchit? Why was he able to meet with the
Kennedys in the Oval Office if he was so dangerous? 

Those are the kinds of questions that nag me. My ideas may be wrong or have
too much focus on the wrong things, but what I am saying I believe to be
true and I have done some research and some of what went on I saw with my
own eyes. 

And yes I am touched by all the "nobodies" like Kathleen Fleury and Norma
Guillam, two Blackfoot women murdered trying to clean up corruption at
Browning, and all those I have known now dead from various causes, and what
a desecration of their memories and all the trust they placed in the
Movement and its leadership if that leadership allows itself to become
corrupted and compromsed to those forces of reaction just waiting for one
slip and to be able to "poison pill" and unravel a whole Movement and
Cause. 

That is what this is all about for me. Not some kind of "ethics police" in
the sense of trying to foist some kind of puritanism. It is just from a
sense of profound respect for all those "nobodies" who had the same kinds
of temptations placed before them but never yielded, often dying alone,
horrible deaths, in some swamp at the hands of KKK, yet never once giving
"The Man" even one opening to compromise themselves and the Movement and
oppressed that touched and trusted them. 

Jim C.

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