[A-List] Misapplied Idealism

[Henry C.K. Liu]

Thank you Jurriaan, for lifting the debate up to a meaningful level, 
instead of missionary style condemnation. Christian missionary are known 
for that zeal in demolishing pagan idols in order to install the 
Christian cross.  Barbarism is a stage of undevelopment or 
underdevelopment.  There is no brutality more direct than malnutrition, 
pandemic disease from unclean water and , deprivation of free public 
health care and education, full employment, etc.  The problem of 
democracy, meaning majority rule, is that under historical conditions, 
the majority in both advanced and developing societies tend to have 
their belief in the myth of that "freedom" must precede development 
constantly reinforced by Western capitalist propaganda. This myth is 
really a fraud. Freedom of thought is really freedom to think like the 
establishment, by agreeing with it rather than challenging it. Brutality 
toward oppression has its merits. Dictatorship of the proletariat is 
necessary to overturn bourgeois democracy.  Capitalism itself benefited 
from the extremism of Protestantism, particularly  Calvinism, the 
brutality of which toward dissidents was legendary. Socialism cannot 
evolve without the pre-requisite of the defeat of imperialism and 
neo-imperialism, which in turn cannot be defeated without brutality.  
Imperialism, as Lenin observed, extended the life of capitalism and 
needs to be destroyed before capital can evolve into socialism. Thus 
brutality is not an abstract phenomenon; it has a historic dialectic and 
a developmental function.  That is the flaw in the concept of the War on 
Terrorism; it attacks the symptom rather than the disease.  The enemy is 
not terrorism per se but the socio-economic-politcal causes will make 
terrorism the sole available means of resistance.  Yes, terrorism is 
horrifying and it kills innocent victims, but the responsibility for the 
evil rests not entirely, not even primarily on terrorists.  If democracy 
delivers political victory to Hamas, Hamas will soon turn legitimate and 
abandon terrorist tactics because less brutal tactic can produce more 
results. The day will soon come when the US is forced to oppose 
democracy worldwide as democracy produces victories for the left. And 
that will be the time when the Civil Society movement will begin to 
defend minority rights with predictable dis-ingenuity.

Henry C.K. Liu


Jurriaan Bendien wrote:

> In defense of Henry Liu, I can find a Marx-quote, which I have cited 
> in a wkipedia article on the "productive forces" 
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Productive_forces):
>
> "...it is only possible to achieve real liberation in the real 
> world... by employing real means... slavery cannot be abolished 
> without the steam-engine and the mule and spinning-jenny, serfdom 
> cannot be abolished without improved agriculture, and... in general, 
> people cannot be liberated as long as they are unable to obtain food 
> and drink, housing and clothing in adequate quality and quantity. 
> "Liberation" is an historical and not a mental act, and it is brought 
> about by historical conditions, the development of industry, commerce, 
> agriculture, the conditions of intercourse [Verkehr]... 
> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/german-ideology/ch01b.htm#b1 
>
>
> But in defense of Patrick Bond, providing barbaric regimes with 
> factories, schools, hospitals, tractors, cars, drilling wells, roads, 
> etc. may not make those regimes any less barbaric. To think so, would 
> be a case of economism, of economic determinism, implying that a 
> better morality will somehow usher forth, simply from the fact that 
> people have more money to spend, perform industrial labour, or own 
> more assets. Indeed, this is the whole nature of the "development 
> problematic" these days - it's not just that more markets do not 
> automatically mean a better morality, but also that the moral fabric 
> must be changed, so that markets can exist at all. Hence the 
> come-uppance of whole new "brigades of moralists" justifying 
> investment here or disinvestment there. But at the root of the "moral" 
> debate is, of course, always the question of property rights, of the 
> just entitlement to wealth.
>
> As I've noted at times, markets or commerce provide no specific 
> morality of their own beyond the requirement to pay your bills. Hence, 
> when commercial forces begin to talk morality, they often quickly wind 
> themselves in justificatory conundrums and hypocrisy.  America, the 
> "greatest democracy on earth", appeals to the world to democratise 
> itself, but cannot in truth even organise a fair and honest 
> presidential election at home, free of fraud and nepotism. It preaches 
> "freedom" and operates the largest prison industry in the world. It 
> preaches "equal opportunity" while denying to millions at home. And so 
> on.
>
> But how do things stand with Marxism? Marxism also lacks a specific 
> morality, beyond the Kantian imperative to revolt against all those 
> conditions which make people less than they could be. Well, even a 
> liberal businessman like Bill Gates could agree with that. What in 
> fact happens is, that the Marxists graft their own moralities onto the 
> doctrine, which may be drawn from a variety of sources; religion; 
> political policy; material interests; cultural conventions, etc. 
> Anyway, "in the name of the working class", all kinds of moral 
> contraband is smuggled into the doctrine, which mutates as a result, 
> sometimes changing beyond recognition, and justifying mass 
> slaughter... until, perhaps, the "m" drops out of "moral". Which 
> really raises the question, under what conditions could a better 
> morality emerge?
>
> Jurriaan
>
> I go down to speaker's corner I'm thunderstruck
> They got free speech, tourists, police in trucks
> Two men say they're jesus one of them must be wrong
> There's a protest singer singing a protest song - he says
> 'they wanna have a war to keep us on our knees
> They wanna have a war to keep their factories
> They wanna have a war to stop us buying japanese
> They wanna have a war to stop industrial disease
> They're pointing out the enemy to keep you deaf and blind
> They wanna sap your energy incarcerate your mind
> They give you rule brittania, gassy beer, page three
> Two weeks in espana and sunday striptease'
> Meanwhile the first jesus says 'I'd cure it soon;
> Abolish monday mornings and friday afternoons'
> The other one's on a hunger strike he's dying by degrees
> How come jesus gets industrial disease?
>
>
>
>
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