[A-List] A view from India

[Nestor Gorojovsky]

Henry, I am far from a China-basher _and you know that_.  I have met 
Patrick Bond once in my life, it has been a very good meeting, but we 
didn't talk on China, nor did we expect to convince each other on 
matters of general politics.  Whatever I say depends on my own 
activities in Argentina, not on anyone's positions.

If you read me carefully you will see that what I said is that your 
(Henry's) line of defense was weak.  

Now, if you say that it is _the Chinese state_ that runs foreign 
trade, things change a lot.  It all (almost) boils down as to know 
whether it is the bourgeoisie that runs China or not.  And to know 
whether there is any risk that the new petty bourgeois layers in 
China define the line of the Communist party or not.  This is why you 
are so eager to insist in that there is no bourgeois government in 
China, something I tend to admit.  

I would even say, against those who speak of "Chinese imperialism" 
(and sorry to tell you Henry that this extends to "Soviet 
imperialism" theories too) that _if_ the Chinese ruling groups were 
representatives of the Chinese bourgeoisie, and even _if_ the Chinese 
bourgeoisie pursued an imperialist policy towards the 3rd World, this 
would be to the benefit of 3rd World countries, who always (and this 
is an empirical law) benefit when there is some inter-imperialist 
struggle.

Granted, however, this idea of an "imperialist" country where foreign 
trade is carried on by state officials (not by domestic bankers or 
domestic bourgeois, and BTW: yes, I avow that in the same way there 
has never been a Soviet financial invasion of L.A. there is _no_ 
Chinese financial invasion of L.America at the very least, which 
makes the charge of "Chinese imperialism" a very hard one to 
buttress!) is far from the usual imperialist or colonialist model.  

It is a completely new situation from the point of view of the 3rd 
World, but not one without its risks.  We really _are_ running the 
risk that China tends to become the workshop of the world in the way 
England did, not even because China is intentionally trying to do it 
but because the global situation tends to put her in that place.  It 
remains to be seen whether the Chinese leadership will have the 
wisdom and courage to face this fact, and act accordingly.

I have not said that the bourgeoisie is at command in China.  What 
little I know is that at least a group of Chinese bourgeois is 
extracting iron ore from our Patagonian iron mine of Sierra Grande 
and they seem to behave like the traditional foreign bourgeois.  If 
this has been agreed by the petty bourgeois administration of Rio 
Negro and the Chinese government, I ignore.  If it hasn't then 
something is happening that does not fit your own schema.

It would be a pity if you left the debate on the list.  I, at least, 
am very interested in the issues at stake.

Respuesta a:"Re: [A-List] A view from India"
Enviado por:Henry C.K. Liu
Con fecha:19 Jan 2006, a las 16:11

> To begin with, Sino-Africa trade is mostly conducted by the Chinese
> government not private companies and as such it is conducted not for
> private profit but to implement national polices which are publicly
> decalred so that China's African trading partneer is hold China to its
> openly declared intentions. So far, no African government has done so.
>  All the complaints are from Western or Western trained liberals.
> Secondly, Sino-Africa trade is so far not profitable for China. 
> Thirdly, all leftist leaders in Africa and Latin America are saying
> trade with Chins is different than trade with the West, the latest is
> Morales of Bolivia, after Chavez. Perhaps they are all lying
> compradors.  Finally, China is trying to help develop and buy basic
> materials and commodities from Africa not to get it cheap but for
> strategic geoploitical reasons to off-set protential US embargo. For
> this reason, China will give more than equal, perhaps even preferntial
> terms of trade to these Third World countries. What make you think the
> bougeoisie is in charge in China?  From  Bond's assertion?
> 
> You are a third party to Sino-Africa trade.  It seems to  there are
> very happy bilateral partners. Yes, some of the leaders are not proper
> democrats by Western standards, like the Saudis are, but as I said,
> China did not put them in power - the West did.  I am not going to
> answer any more sophmoric condamnation of China from so-called
> leftists. I have more important things to do.  I will stop posting
> information on China on this list from now on.
> 
> Henry C.K. Liu
> 
> Nestor Gorojovsky wrote:
> 
> >Well, Henry, if this is all that can be said then -at first blush-
> >China risks behaving towards the Third World as Britain behaved
> >towards China.  It certainly risks behaving the way traditional
> >colonialists did.  You know the story: first the Mission ("political,
> > ideological, and programmatic" alliance), then the merchants, later
> >on the troops if need be and IMF is not enough.
> >
> >What China should demonstrate is that it does not _export capital in
> >order to turn the economies of her partners subservient economies,
> >and to extract surplus from the partners in a non-leveraged way.
> >
> >I don't say this can not be demonstrated.  What I say is that the
> >line of argument you follow does _not_ destroy the China-bashers as
> >you call them because it simply relies on faith in China's good
> >faith.
> >
> >And you don't give a single reason why a Chinese bourgeois will be,
> >in foreign trade, less of a rogue than, say, an American bourgeois. 
> >If there is some way in which the Chinese state can operate the
> >miracle and make Chinese bourgeois less rapacious than their Western
> >and Japanese counterparts, it would be most interesting to be aware
> >of it.
> >
> >
> >
> >Respuesta a:"[A-List] A view from India"
> >Enviado por:Henry C.K. Liu
> >Con fecha:18 Jan 2006, a las 18:45
> >
> >  
> >
> >>China sees the third world countries as new sources of raw
> >>materials, including energy sources. It also sees those countries as
> >>markets for its manufactured goods.
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >[...]
> >
> >  
> >
> >>China's attitude towards trade is very different than the western
> >>countries. Whereas the western countries see economic relations with
> >>the third world countries in a linear dimension, China views these
> >>relations with a multilateral approach. It forges political and
> >>ideological relations along with economic relations. This is why Evo
> >>Morales called China a "political, ideological, and programmatic
> >>ally of the Bolivian people".
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >
> >Este correo lo ha enviado
> >Néstor Miguel Gorojovsky
> >nestorgoro at fibertel.com.ar
> >[No necesariamente es su autor]
> >_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "La
> >patria tiene que ser la dignidad arriba y el regocijo abajo".
> >Aparicio Saravia _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
> >_ _ _ _ _ _ _ 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> 



Este correo lo ha enviado
Néstor Miguel Gorojovsky
nestorgoro at fibertel.com.ar
[No necesariamente es su autor]
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 
"La patria tiene que ser la dignidad arriba y el regocijo abajo".
Aparicio Saravia
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _